4 ms·

Not necessarily. The grid of the future needs a plurality of solutions, one of which is clean baseload (e.g. hydropower, nuclear fission, or fusion). However,

Not necessarily. The grid of the future needs a plurality of solutions, one of which is clean baseload (e.g. hydropower, nuclear fission, or fusion). However, don't discount renewables. Paired with energy storage -- which isn't only chemical batteries! --, intermittent generation can be extremely useful across vasts parts of North America.

Kye 2y ago
Flywheel energy storage is neat: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flywheel_energy_storage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flywheel_energy_storage Add energy (speed) when available, use it to power things when not.
Retric 2y ago
Baseload is a term used to describe a downside not some inherent requirement of the grid. Up to 30% of electricity can be supplied by “baseload” sources without issue, but scaling past that runs into increasing problems. Hydro is described as peaking power because it can be ramped up and down 100%-0%-100% multiple times in a single day. Very useful for tracking changing demand and intermittent energy from solar/wind. Coal/Nuclear has issues doing the same due to thermal stress and heat loss when not in use. The energy used to get things back to working temperatures requires fuel which isn’t generating power, you also have ware issues from thermal cycling. Alternatively, you could keep things at operating temperatures but that’s again spending fuel without generating electricity. On top of this Nuclear runs into if you try and ramp down very low very quickly, wait a few hours a then try and ramp back up. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutron_poison https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutron_poison To be clear 100%-30%-100% can be fine 100% to 0% to 100% isn’t.
- cosmic_quanta 2y ago
  You are right, I should have used the term "firm power" instead of "baseload"
  - Retric 2y ago
    “Dispatchable generation” may be a better fit for what you’re talking about. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dispatchable_generation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dispatchable_generation “Firm power” is more about the type of relationship between energy generation and consumers than the actual technology being used. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firm_service https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firm_service
  - mpweiher 2y ago
    No, you were right, baseload is fine. Baseload is load, so demand side. Firm power is generation, so supply side.
- mpweiher 2y ago
  Baseload is a a requirement of real electricity demand, it tends to be about 50-60% of total demand. Since intermittent renewables cannot do baseload, and get asymptotically more expensive trying, fans of intermittent renewables are trying to paint baseload as an obsolete concept by making intermittency primary. That is silly. Baseload is real and a major component of demand. Intermittent renewables can be a good addition, as their supply curves can actually match the variable part of the demand fairly closely (thought obviously not perfectly). It is not true that Hydro can be ramped arbitrarily. For example, just last year Finland had a huge problem with their plentiful hydro plants overloading the grid. Fortunately they also have significant nuclear that they were able to ramp down to compensate. With ~60% baseload, there is no need to ramp nuclear plants down to 0 rapidly. That's only necessary if you screw up your grid by having too much intermittent renewables and giving them priority. Don't do that. Alas, overloading their grid with renewables is exactly what some countries are doing, Germany for example. This is a really bad idea for a number of reasons. One is that due to even the average capacity factors being so low, you have to dramatically over provision in order to even achieve fully supply on average. However, that massive overprovisioning means that when weather is favorable, those massively over provisioned massively cannibalize each other (and other producers, if those still exist). The more you overprovision, the worse this gets. Reasonably ramping nuclear up or down is no problem. France for example has been using nuclear reactors almost exclusively for some time. Lower capacity factors for the nuclear plants than you'd really want, but otherwise not a problem. Their investment in renewables (aim seems to be around 30-40%) will likely increase the capacity factors of their nuclear plants. Good for them!
  - Retric 2y ago
    It’s not the renewable cloud trying to redefine a term go back to 2005 on Wikipedia and you’ll see: “A base load power plant is one that provides a steady flow of power reguardless of total power demand by the grid. Typically, nuclear power plants and most coal fired power plants are considered base load because it is more efficient or safer to run at a set output instead of trying to precisely match power consumption demands.” https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Base_load&oldid=13520018 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Base_load&oldid=1... You can find that definition used regularly in older books dating well before renewables where a thing. 01 April 1967: “This paper states some of the basic principles concerning daily and annual load factor on power systems, and the use of load duration curves in coordinating the type and operating pattern of generating plant. Operating procedure is explained, and the types of plant in use or under construction in New Zealand are described. Overseas plant is divided into the categories of base load, medium load factor, and peaking, with an outline of the desirable characteristics in each case.” Also, time of day pricing shifts users to periods of low demand so it doesn’t represent the minimum need, just the observed demand under specific pricing schemes. If daytime rates fall well below nighttime rates continually the actual usage at 3AM would fall dramatically.

Kye 2y ago

Flywheel energy storage is neat: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flywheel_energy_storage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flywheel_energy_storage Add energy (speed) when available, use it to power things when not.

Retric 2y ago

Baseload is a term used to describe a downside not some inherent requirement of the grid. Up to 30% of electricity can be supplied by “baseload” sources without issue, but scaling past that runs into increasing problems. Hydro is described as peaking power because it can be ramped up and down 100%-0%-100% multiple times in a single day. Very useful for tracking changing demand and intermittent energy from solar/wind. Coal/Nuclear has issues doing the same due to thermal stress and heat loss when not in use. The energy used to get things back to working temperatures requires fuel which isn’t generating power, you also have ware issues from thermal cycling. Alternatively, you could keep things at operating temperatures but that’s again spending fuel without generating electricity. On top of this Nuclear runs into if you try and ramp down very low very quickly, wait a few hours a then try and ramp back up. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutron_poison https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutron_poison To be clear 100%-30%-100% can be fine 100% to 0% to 100% isn’t.

cosmic_quanta 2y ago
You are right, I should have used the term "firm power" instead of "baseload"
- Retric 2y ago
  “Dispatchable generation” may be a better fit for what you’re talking about. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dispatchable_generation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dispatchable_generation “Firm power” is more about the type of relationship between energy generation and consumers than the actual technology being used. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firm_service https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firm_service
- mpweiher 2y ago
  No, you were right, baseload is fine. Baseload is load, so demand side. Firm power is generation, so supply side.
mpweiher 2y ago
Baseload is a a requirement of real electricity demand, it tends to be about 50-60% of total demand. Since intermittent renewables cannot do baseload, and get asymptotically more expensive trying, fans of intermittent renewables are trying to paint baseload as an obsolete concept by making intermittency primary. That is silly. Baseload is real and a major component of demand. Intermittent renewables can be a good addition, as their supply curves can actually match the variable part of the demand fairly closely (thought obviously not perfectly). It is not true that Hydro can be ramped arbitrarily. For example, just last year Finland had a huge problem with their plentiful hydro plants overloading the grid. Fortunately they also have significant nuclear that they were able to ramp down to compensate. With ~60% baseload, there is no need to ramp nuclear plants down to 0 rapidly. That's only necessary if you screw up your grid by having too much intermittent renewables and giving them priority. Don't do that. Alas, overloading their grid with renewables is exactly what some countries are doing, Germany for example. This is a really bad idea for a number of reasons. One is that due to even the average capacity factors being so low, you have to dramatically over provision in order to even achieve fully supply on average. However, that massive overprovisioning means that when weather is favorable, those massively over provisioned massively cannibalize each other (and other producers, if those still exist). The more you overprovision, the worse this gets. Reasonably ramping nuclear up or down is no problem. France for example has been using nuclear reactors almost exclusively for some time. Lower capacity factors for the nuclear plants than you'd really want, but otherwise not a problem. Their investment in renewables (aim seems to be around 30-40%) will likely increase the capacity factors of their nuclear plants. Good for them!
- Retric 2y ago
  It’s not the renewable cloud trying to redefine a term go back to 2005 on Wikipedia and you’ll see: “A base load power plant is one that provides a steady flow of power reguardless of total power demand by the grid. Typically, nuclear power plants and most coal fired power plants are considered base load because it is more efficient or safer to run at a set output instead of trying to precisely match power consumption demands.” https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Base_load&oldid=13520018 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Base_load&oldid=1... You can find that definition used regularly in older books dating well before renewables where a thing. 01 April 1967: “This paper states some of the basic principles concerning daily and annual load factor on power systems, and the use of load duration curves in coordinating the type and operating pattern of generating plant. Operating procedure is explained, and the types of plant in use or under construction in New Zealand are described. Overseas plant is divided into the categories of base load, medium load factor, and peaking, with an outline of the desirable characteristics in each case.” Also, time of day pricing shifts users to periods of low demand so it doesn’t represent the minimum need, just the observed demand under specific pricing schemes. If daytime rates fall well below nighttime rates continually the actual usage at 3AM would fall dramatically.