7 ms·

> The fact that they've been stripping their NATO borders bare with barely anyone noticing or caring shows that nobody views the prospect of a NATO invasion as

by roenxi 2y ago

> The fact that they've been stripping their NATO borders bare with barely anyone noticing or caring shows that nobody views the prospect of a NATO invasion as realistic. Nobody has ever suggested that there was a prospect of a NATO invasion of Russia. That is crazy talk; it'd be the end of civilisation in the northern hemisphere. They aren't deploying troops to ward off a NATO invasion, that is what the ICBMs are for.

AnimalMuppet 2y ago
Right. But why is NATO "bringing military infrastructure closer to Russian borders" a concern to Russia if they aren't worried about a NATO invasion? So what's really going on? Well, Putin said "rudely". Russia feels insulted because everybody wants to be in NATO, and nobody wants to be Russia's buddy... if you take Putin's words at face value. If you don't, then I think Putin is terrified of Ukraine's revolution against a Russia-friendly leader. He doesn't want a western-friendly revolution in a culturally-Russian-adjacent country to succeed - there's too much chance that Russians might decide that they like the idea.
- roenxi 2y ago
  Because the major point of that infrastructure is to kill lots of Russians? It isn't hard to understand the motivations here, we've seen the US throw a massive hissy fit in the Cuban Missile crisis because of Soviet gear in Cuba and that was much more benign than a full military integration. And the US has a history dating back more than a century of tolerating no rival military powers in their hemisphere [0] let alone on their borders. There isn't anything to wonder at here - the Russians see their security interests as covering their border regions. In a display of outrageous hypocrisy the US also sees their security interests as also covering Russia's border region. Kremlin concern over this is hardly unexpected. The way the Ukraine war has played out makes it pretty clear the Russians did have legitimate concerns. When the US invades Iraq with no moral justification, everyone moves on. When Russia invades Ukraine with no moral justification we see a similar response from most of the world ... except NATO that goes in and orchestrates what Wikipedia suggests are half a million casualties of the Russian armed forces [1]. Why might Russian military planners feel this is a threat? Because they can count corpses and they're not stupid. If you want to argue that they underestimated the threat NATO posed them in Ukraine and so Putin was lying that is one thing, but if so his propaganda happened to be truer to reality than he thought because he made a great point. NATO is out to get the Russians. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monroe_Doctrine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monroe_Doctrine [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War#Total_casualties https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Russo-Ukrain...
  - aguaviva 2y ago
    We've seen the US throw a massive hissy fit in the Cuban Missile crisis because of Soviet gear in Cuba and that was much more benign than a full military integration. Except there was no "full military integration" in the works, or even any "gear" deployed in Ukraine before Putin started throwing his massy hissy fit in 2014. Because the major point of that infrastructure is to kill lots of Russians? The point is to gently remind the current regime of the borders of NATO states, and of this thing known as Article 5 of the North Atlantic Treaty.
    - roenxi 2y ago
      [flagged]
      - mopsi 2y ago
        > Former NATO Secretary-General Jaap de Hoop Scheffer seems to disagree with that assessment, there were plans. There were none, this "eventually" was an empty consolation without any timeframe, and was widely criticized as such at the time. No gear, no integration - and no desire to move in that direction. > And that was even before the 2014 coup that coincidentally set up a pro-NATO government. There was no coup in Ukraine. Ukraine became very interested in the military alliance after Russia invaded them.
  - PoignardAzur 2y ago
    Cool story. At that point we get back to: > If NATO anxiety was the primary factor for the war in Ukraine, Russia wouldn't be so blasé about draining troops and hardware from its borders with NATO countries to throw them into the meat-grinder
  - AnimalMuppet 2y ago
    > Because the major point of that infrastructure is to kill lots of Russians? Because the major point of that infrastructure is to kill lots of Russians if they invade. > Why might Russian military planners feel this is a threat? Because they can count corpses and they're not stupid. Because they can count corpses after they invaded. The logical conclusion was "don't invade", not "hurry up and invade while you still can".

by roenxi 2y ago

AnimalMuppet 2y ago

Right. But why is NATO "bringing military infrastructure closer to Russian borders" a concern to Russia if they aren't worried about a NATO invasion? So what's really going on? Well, Putin said "rudely". Russia feels insulted because everybody wants to be in NATO, and nobody wants to be Russia's buddy... if you take Putin's words at face value. If you don't, then I think Putin is terrified of Ukraine's revolution against a Russia-friendly leader. He doesn't want a western-friendly revolution in a culturally-Russian-adjacent country to succeed - there's too much chance that Russians might decide that they like the idea.

roenxi 2y ago
Because the major point of that infrastructure is to kill lots of Russians? It isn't hard to understand the motivations here, we've seen the US throw a massive hissy fit in the Cuban Missile crisis because of Soviet gear in Cuba and that was much more benign than a full military integration. And the US has a history dating back more than a century of tolerating no rival military powers in their hemisphere [0] let alone on their borders. There isn't anything to wonder at here - the Russians see their security interests as covering their border regions. In a display of outrageous hypocrisy the US also sees their security interests as also covering Russia's border region. Kremlin concern over this is hardly unexpected. The way the Ukraine war has played out makes it pretty clear the Russians did have legitimate concerns. When the US invades Iraq with no moral justification, everyone moves on. When Russia invades Ukraine with no moral justification we see a similar response from most of the world ... except NATO that goes in and orchestrates what Wikipedia suggests are half a million casualties of the Russian armed forces [1]. Why might Russian military planners feel this is a threat? Because they can count corpses and they're not stupid. If you want to argue that they underestimated the threat NATO posed them in Ukraine and so Putin was lying that is one thing, but if so his propaganda happened to be truer to reality than he thought because he made a great point. NATO is out to get the Russians. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monroe_Doctrine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monroe_Doctrine [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War#Total_casualties https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Russo-Ukrain...
- aguaviva 2y ago
  We've seen the US throw a massive hissy fit in the Cuban Missile crisis because of Soviet gear in Cuba and that was much more benign than a full military integration. Except there was no "full military integration" in the works, or even any "gear" deployed in Ukraine before Putin started throwing his massy hissy fit in 2014. Because the major point of that infrastructure is to kill lots of Russians? The point is to gently remind the current regime of the borders of NATO states, and of this thing known as Article 5 of the North Atlantic Treaty.
  - roenxi 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - mopsi 2y ago
      > Former NATO Secretary-General Jaap de Hoop Scheffer seems to disagree with that assessment, there were plans. There were none, this "eventually" was an empty consolation without any timeframe, and was widely criticized as such at the time. No gear, no integration - and no desire to move in that direction. > And that was even before the 2014 coup that coincidentally set up a pro-NATO government. There was no coup in Ukraine. Ukraine became very interested in the military alliance after Russia invaded them.
- PoignardAzur 2y ago
  Cool story. At that point we get back to: > If NATO anxiety was the primary factor for the war in Ukraine, Russia wouldn't be so blasé about draining troops and hardware from its borders with NATO countries to throw them into the meat-grinder
- AnimalMuppet 2y ago
  > Because the major point of that infrastructure is to kill lots of Russians? Because the major point of that infrastructure is to kill lots of Russians if they invade. > Why might Russian military planners feel this is a threat? Because they can count corpses and they're not stupid. Because they can count corpses after they invaded. The logical conclusion was "don't invade", not "hurry up and invade while you still can".