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The base problem I see is how energy is provided when extended periods of no renewables ( no solar or wind ) . batteries are not suitable for extended periods.

The base problem I see is how energy is provided when extended periods of no renewables ( no solar or wind ) . batteries are not suitable for extended periods. The abc article e even admits this problem ... ie ..." opened up the possibility of coal plants being left on care-and-maintenance after they retired from full-time service – of using them as back-up generators when the system needed the help."

h0l0cube 2y ago
> batteries are not suitable for extended periods Yet. It's just a matter of capacity. Yearly growth in grid storage is increasing at a rate even greater than solar. Crucially grid storage isn't limited by energy density, which leaves room for cheaper options – like sodium ion – which don't have the scaling bottlenecks of li-ion.
pjc50 2y ago
Something like 35% of Australia is desert. There's no good reason for solar to not work on almost every day, so all you need is overnight coverage not a full seasonal battery.
- fghorow 2y ago
  Australia is HUGE and mostly empty. You need some mechanism for getting that energy from source to sink. Transmission lines are relatively few and far between. The eastern states have an interconnected grid. Western Australia is not only isolated, but its internal grid doesn't even reach the northern part of the state. There was a ~GW scale geothermal development in the Cooper Basin in the late '10s. The (pilot) plant was in and operating demonstrating the feasibility of (so-called) Engineered Geothermal Systems. The entire operation died on the vine because the geothermal site was 600 line-km from the nearest transmission line, and the company that developed the geothermal field was counting on the government to fund that connection. It didn't.
  - rswail 2y ago
    On the other hand, there is active development of the grid now in the Eastern states. Plans for extensions of the transmission network in Victoria to support offshore wind as well as to a renewables zone, plus new interconnectors to NSW.
Ghaenergyyy 2y ago
The problem is the amount of people not willing to invest into energy storage. If we would now buy a lot more EVs and make bi-directional charging mandatory, we would have a lot more capacity available 'out of the box'. Additional investment into grid storage batteries would also add to economy of scale. But noooo we are to slow, to careflu, we don't like it, we <add your excuse here>
rswail 2y ago
Pumped hydro is a battery, Snowy 2.0 for example [1] > Snowy 2.0 will provide an additional 2,200 megawatts of dispatchable, on-demand generating capacity and approximately 350,000 megawatt hours of large-scale storage to the National Electricity Market. To provide context, this is enough energy storage to power three million homes over the course of a week. Every EV is a battery. V2H (Home) and V2G (Grid) standards are evolving to allow them to be managed as part of the grid/mesh. [1] https://www.snowyhydro.com.au/snowy-20/about/ https://www.snowyhydro.com.au/snowy-20/about/
- asdefghyk 2y ago
  There is lots criticism of this project , including its rising cost, currently $12 billion. My point is there needs to be large amounts of storage , KEPT IN RESERVE for unexpected weather events that last several days. Then there needs to be the (to be constructed) network capacity to get it to where energy is needed. ( At present , most just assume a infinite copper grid) Then there needs to be excess generation capacity to recharge the storage after its use. (Hopefully no back to back extreme renewable droughts) The present electricity supply system has evolved over several decades. Completely re engineering the electricity grid over a relatively short time , like a decade, is bound to have lots expensive problems leading to high electricity prices and un reliable grid supply. Every EV as a battery , skeptical about that, sounds good, I can see implementation problems.
  - rswail 2y ago
    Yes, it's blown out on cost, primarily because of tunnelling issues. Your point about large amounts of storage and the network capacity etc is correct, however, no one "just assume[s] a infinite copper grid". AEMOs ISP includes transmission network upgrades to both connect Renewable Energy Zones (eg offshore and rural REZ in Victoria). The problems of "baseload" disappearing both because of the age of the generators and the variability of RE because "always on" generation doesn't work well with variable generation has to be solved, but storage is growing now at the same sort of rate as generation, especially co-located solar/storage. It is exceedingly rare for unexpected weather events lasting several days across the entire NEM. In fact, it has never occurred.

h0l0cube 2y ago

> batteries are not suitable for extended periods Yet. It's just a matter of capacity. Yearly growth in grid storage is increasing at a rate even greater than solar. Crucially grid storage isn't limited by energy density, which leaves room for cheaper options – like sodium ion – which don't have the scaling bottlenecks of li-ion.

pjc50 2y ago

Something like 35% of Australia is desert. There's no good reason for solar to not work on almost every day, so all you need is overnight coverage not a full seasonal battery.

fghorow 2y ago
Australia is HUGE and mostly empty. You need some mechanism for getting that energy from source to sink. Transmission lines are relatively few and far between. The eastern states have an interconnected grid. Western Australia is not only isolated, but its internal grid doesn't even reach the northern part of the state. There was a ~GW scale geothermal development in the Cooper Basin in the late '10s. The (pilot) plant was in and operating demonstrating the feasibility of (so-called) Engineered Geothermal Systems. The entire operation died on the vine because the geothermal site was 600 line-km from the nearest transmission line, and the company that developed the geothermal field was counting on the government to fund that connection. It didn't.
- rswail 2y ago
  On the other hand, there is active development of the grid now in the Eastern states. Plans for extensions of the transmission network in Victoria to support offshore wind as well as to a renewables zone, plus new interconnectors to NSW.

Ghaenergyyy 2y ago

The problem is the amount of people not willing to invest into energy storage. If we would now buy a lot more EVs and make bi-directional charging mandatory, we would have a lot more capacity available 'out of the box'. Additional investment into grid storage batteries would also add to economy of scale. But noooo we are to slow, to careflu, we don't like it, we <add your excuse here>

rswail 2y ago

Pumped hydro is a battery, Snowy 2.0 for example [1] > Snowy 2.0 will provide an additional 2,200 megawatts of dispatchable, on-demand generating capacity and approximately 350,000 megawatt hours of large-scale storage to the National Electricity Market. To provide context, this is enough energy storage to power three million homes over the course of a week. Every EV is a battery. V2H (Home) and V2G (Grid) standards are evolving to allow them to be managed as part of the grid/mesh. [1] https://www.snowyhydro.com.au/snowy-20/about/ https://www.snowyhydro.com.au/snowy-20/about/

asdefghyk 2y ago
There is lots criticism of this project , including its rising cost, currently $12 billion. My point is there needs to be large amounts of storage , KEPT IN RESERVE for unexpected weather events that last several days. Then there needs to be the (to be constructed) network capacity to get it to where energy is needed. ( At present , most just assume a infinite copper grid) Then there needs to be excess generation capacity to recharge the storage after its use. (Hopefully no back to back extreme renewable droughts) The present electricity supply system has evolved over several decades. Completely re engineering the electricity grid over a relatively short time , like a decade, is bound to have lots expensive problems leading to high electricity prices and un reliable grid supply. Every EV as a battery , skeptical about that, sounds good, I can see implementation problems.
- rswail 2y ago
  Yes, it's blown out on cost, primarily because of tunnelling issues. Your point about large amounts of storage and the network capacity etc is correct, however, no one "just assume[s] a infinite copper grid". AEMOs ISP includes transmission network upgrades to both connect Renewable Energy Zones (eg offshore and rural REZ in Victoria). The problems of "baseload" disappearing both because of the age of the generators and the variability of RE because "always on" generation doesn't work well with variable generation has to be solved, but storage is growing now at the same sort of rate as generation, especially co-located solar/storage. It is exceedingly rare for unexpected weather events lasting several days across the entire NEM. In fact, it has never occurred.