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> A bit confused at this, NPM is just a package manager / distribution mechanism, not a framework It's an out-of-language packaging/distribution framework (and

by sgbeal 2y ago

> A bit confused at this, NPM is just a package manager / distribution mechanism, not a framework It's an out-of-language packaging/distribution framework (and it's not the only one). It's not part of the JS standards. My comments above have been edited to reframe our stance on npm and frameworks in general.

rezonant 2y ago
I don't think there will ever be a package manager dictated by the Ecmascript standards.
- syndicatedjelly 2y ago
  Then ES will continue to remain an outlier among major language implementations
  - sorrythanks 2y ago
    what package manager is dictated by the C, C++, Common Lisp, Ruby, Prolog, Pascal... any language's standard? I am struggling to think of a single standardized language whose standard defines the package manager
    - kazinator 2y ago
      Languages should make it easy to use third party pieces directly, without a package manager. People actually do that, and so that status quo is maintained; any increment in the difficulty of constructing programs out of components will result in loud protests. Package managers are an anti-pattern. When the standard package manager is present, the packaging problem is regarded as solved ("just use the package manager"), and so the actual mechanisms underlying program construction are then out of the negative feedback loop and will rot.
      - rezonant 2y ago
        Somewhat confused by this statement, I'm having trouble thinking of a language where it's hard to consume code without a package manager...
        deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
        syndicatedjelly 2y ago
        Imagine a world where your language’s package manager became a company that basically offered “Package Management as a Service”. How effective do you imagine that would be?
samatman 2y ago
I think the communication barrier here is that in JavaScript, framework very distinctly means things like React, Vue, Angular, and so on. It definitely does not refer to projects like Node/npm/Bun/Deno, those are toolchains, sometimes called ecosystems for obscure reasons. If you changed the word "framework" to "toolchain" in your post I think it would make a lot more sense to people.
- sgbeal 2y ago
  > If you changed the word "framework" to "toolchain" in your post I think it would make a lot more sense to people. Fair point but the edit window has passed ;). For the sake of clarity for those still following along: "framework," in the context of my above comments, includes any non-formally-standardized tools or APIs which are built atop the standardized core.

by sgbeal 2y ago

rezonant 2y ago

I don't think there will ever be a package manager dictated by the Ecmascript standards.

syndicatedjelly 2y ago
Then ES will continue to remain an outlier among major language implementations
- sorrythanks 2y ago
  what package manager is dictated by the C, C++, Common Lisp, Ruby, Prolog, Pascal... any language's standard? I am struggling to think of a single standardized language whose standard defines the package manager
  - kazinator 2y ago
    Languages should make it easy to use third party pieces directly, without a package manager. People actually do that, and so that status quo is maintained; any increment in the difficulty of constructing programs out of components will result in loud protests. Package managers are an anti-pattern. When the standard package manager is present, the packaging problem is regarded as solved ("just use the package manager"), and so the actual mechanisms underlying program construction are then out of the negative feedback loop and will rot.
    - rezonant 2y ago
      Somewhat confused by this statement, I'm having trouble thinking of a language where it's hard to consume code without a package manager...
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
      - syndicatedjelly 2y ago
        Imagine a world where your language’s package manager became a company that basically offered “Package Management as a Service”. How effective do you imagine that would be?

samatman 2y ago

I think the communication barrier here is that in JavaScript, framework very distinctly means things like React, Vue, Angular, and so on. It definitely does not refer to projects like Node/npm/Bun/Deno, those are toolchains, sometimes called ecosystems for obscure reasons. If you changed the word "framework" to "toolchain" in your post I think it would make a lot more sense to people.

sgbeal 2y ago
> If you changed the word "framework" to "toolchain" in your post I think it would make a lot more sense to people. Fair point but the edit window has passed ;). For the sake of clarity for those still following along: "framework," in the context of my above comments, includes any non-formally-standardized tools or APIs which are built atop the standardized core.