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That title is most definitely a swipe at OpenAI. It seems there’s a theme of two types of platform companies: the closed one that has the “premium” platform, an

That title is most definitely a swipe at OpenAI. It seems there’s a theme of two types of platform companies: the closed one that has the “premium” platform, and the open one that gets market share by commodifying the platform. macOS vs Windows iOS vs Android OpenAI vs Meta AI? Edit: Another observation is Meta seems to open things defensively. Facebook had a rich developer platform until Facebook stopped needing to grab market share. Meta’s VR platform was closed until Apple challenged them with Vision Pro. Then Meta announced open sourcing Horizon OS. I wonder if Meta will truly keep things open if they win, or if it’s more like a case of EEE?

giancarlostoro 2y ago
I've used OpenAI's tech, and I've used their competitors tech, but I've never used any of Facebooks AI tech yet. Is there something I'm missing out on?
- edm0nd 2y ago
  Meta = LLaMA I think the bet is that many other things will use their llama that you then use. Perhaps without you even knowing this.
- a_wild_dandan 2y ago
  Running a (405B) flagship model locally on a Mac Studio? Otherwise, no. Most of these products are fairly similar.
- herval 2y ago
  Ever heard of pytorch?
  - giancarlostoro 2y ago
    Never used it myself, but that's a good call out and precisely why I asked.
jsheard 2y ago
Windows and Android took the commodity approach but they always had a business model, while Meta AI is currently running on Underpants Gnomes economics. 1. Spend billions on a product, then give it away for free. 2. ??? 3. Profit! > Then Meta announced open sourcing Horizon OS. Open sourcing isn't really the right term, they're allowing third party hardware vendors to use it but it's still proprietary. Horizon OS is built on top of Android and they're following the Android playbook where the core is technically open source but the version nearly everyone actually uses has a bunch of proprietary Google (or Meta) software layered on top, and Google (or Meta) dictates the terms of using that software, which lets them ensure that revenue always flows back to Google (or Meta) regardless of who made the hardware.
- herval 2y ago
  They use the models they opensource in their own products, no? I don’t think Meta is looking to profit selling LLMs…
  - TechDebtDevin 2y ago
    > "I don’t think Meta is looking to profit selling LLMs…" Said no one ever.
    - dartos 2y ago
      OP said it… I also don’t think meta is looking to sell LLMs. Probably LLM backed products. Likely marketing tools if anything. But not the same way OAI sells LLMs
      - TechDebtDevin 2y ago
        Maybe not "sell" but if you look at my other comment on this post you'll see their valuation has increased 162 billion since they released their first open source model. They definitely are looking to profit, they just take a different approach to monetization. Same thing in my book.
KaiserPro 2y ago
OCP has been about for _years_. Almost since facebook was a thing. Facebook the site had a rich platform until they had to secure it against people stealing your data, and your mate's data and pretending that they had a really rich dataset on most of the western world's adult population (ie Cambridge analytica ) Horizon OS is a fucking mess and isn't anything really to do with Apple, its more to do with the making sure samsung don't use android for what ever shit they produce. OpenAI aren't going to compete with Meta, as they aren't in the same game. OpenAI has to make money from its offerings, Meta's AI shit is a byproduct of other things (see massive spending on "reality labs")
wubrr 2y ago
> That title is most definitely a swipe at OpenAI. Eh, 'OpenAI' is a swipe at OpenAI.
osrec 2y ago
What is EEE?
- ArnoVW 2y ago
  Embrace, Extend, Extinguish. Famously the Microsoft strategy against Java.
  - EasyMark 2y ago
    Somewhat related to their FUD policy towards linux
  - jameslk 2y ago
    Yes this is what I meant. Sorry I was being lazy at the keyboard
- richardw 2y ago
  I assume it’s embrace, extend, extinguish: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguish https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extingu...
hintymad 2y ago
OpenAI does not have its own platform yet but depend on Azure? If so, they probably should build their platform to squeeze out as much cost as possible.
- johannes1234321 2y ago
  They have their own platform - a platform to build AI tools on top of their API. The hardware layer below is abstracted away.
ipaddr 2y ago
macOS isn't a premium product over Windows nor is iOS over Android. Windows isn't really an open platform either. OpenAI is more open as it doesn't require logging in. A simple narrative doesn't exist connecting these three product battles. The only thing that comes to mind is macOS, iOS and OpenAI are designed for the novice. You could probably add Coinbase vs Binance or Uber vs Lyft or Facebook vs Google Plus and be able to keep that narrative.
- teractiveodular 2y ago
  Apple is undeniably a premium product for consumers, and its OSes get the halo effect from that. Whether they're "premium" to develop or even use for is an entirely different question.
- russelg 2y ago
  Ironically macOS is more "open" (as in source available) than Windows. https://opensource.apple.com/releases/ https://opensource.apple.com/releases/
  - ipaddr 2y ago
    Microsoft was anti open source until the world changed. Windows was never open source or source available. It's ironic they own github. It is more shocking macOS is source available.
    - yjftsjthsd-h 2y ago
      > It is more shocking macOS is source available. Nitpick: It's actual Open Source, not Source Available. Not the whole thing, but what code they release is under permissive open source licenses.
      - yjftsjthsd-h 2y ago
        Sorry, mostly permissive licenses; there are a tiny number of copyleft things in there (famously, the last GPLv2 version of bash)
wkat4242 2y ago
Meta's VR wasn't really a lot more closed to be honest. They've just dropped the deep review process and anyone can now publish to the main store what was previously 'app lab'. They've been heading this way for a long time, a couple years ago they didn't even have app lab. And the OS being open isn't really that relevant unless you're a system integrator. I really doubt whether this is in response to Apple. They seem to operate in entirely different markets. I love VR but I can never buy a vision pro. It's twice what I've ever spent on my most expensive car.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- jameslk 2y ago
  Oculus devices and AVP are presently in different categories from a cost perspective, but my understanding is the two companies were chasing after the same eventual market. Apple intended (intends?) on releasing a lower end device. Arguably AVP was meant as dev device anyway so devs could start building apps. And Meta was working on a higher end device until they nixed it after AVP sales tanked. Zuck himself went on a PR attack campaign about superiority of their technology vs Apple's. > “I finally tried Apple’s Vision Pro,” Zuckerberg says. “And I have to say, before this, I expected that Quest would be the better value for most people since it’s really good and seven times less expensive but after using it, I don’t just think Quest is the better value. I think Quest is the better product period.” The longer term horizon here seems to be that Reality Labs will release AR glasses that may have more mass appeal, and I would expect Apple will too.
ants_everywhere 2y ago
Apple is more about luxury branding than premium offering. I don't think OpenAI is trying to position its services as projecting wealth or style. Facebook's hardware designs don't really help them differentiate since they don't run a public cloud. If they release the open source hardware and successfully drum up interest, then it will be cheaper for them to procure hardware. Releasing Llama guards against Google AI dominance. Google and Facebook are longtime competitors and Google controls the OS on most phones Facebook needs to run its ads on. Open sourcing AI hardware guards against a potentially dominant Nvidia, especially if they team up with one of the cloud companies. I'm sure they're also worried about OpenAI, but at this point it doesn't look like OpenAI is on Facebook's turf.
- jameslk 2y ago
  > Apple is more about luxury branding than premium offering. I don't think OpenAI is trying to position its services as projecting wealth or style. What do you think OpenAI hired Jony Ive to do? ;) https://www.theverge.com/2024/9/21/24250867/jony-ive-confirms-collaboration-openai-hardware https://www.theverge.com/2024/9/21/24250867/jony-ive-confirm... Regardless, I meant premium as in better or dominant in the market. It's hard to overcome first mover advantage with a "me too" product, but "commoditizing your complement" seems to be a pretty effective disrupter. I think Meta is worried about Google, OpenAI, Anthropic, and anyone else with gen AI models. It seems to be related to where they're going.
- spiderfarmer 2y ago
  For many, the terms 'luxury' and 'premium' are interchangeable, signifying both high quality and exclusivity. Most Apple users, may not be able to list specific specs of their devices — a testament to the brand's focus on overall user experience rather than technical details. Ask any Apple user if their device is superior to that of the competition, and the majority will affirm it does, because it just feels premium.
  - ein0p 2y ago
    Just as most Mercedes owners don’t really care how many horsepower the car has. It just has “enough”.
ein0p 2y ago
Meta knows it can’t be the top player in this space, their best play, therefore is to control the second tier. Ironically I think they aren’t even the best in the second tier - Mistral is.

giancarlostoro 2y ago

I've used OpenAI's tech, and I've used their competitors tech, but I've never used any of Facebooks AI tech yet. Is there something I'm missing out on?

edm0nd 2y ago
Meta = LLaMA I think the bet is that many other things will use their llama that you then use. Perhaps without you even knowing this.
a_wild_dandan 2y ago
Running a (405B) flagship model locally on a Mac Studio? Otherwise, no. Most of these products are fairly similar.
herval 2y ago
Ever heard of pytorch?
- giancarlostoro 2y ago
  Never used it myself, but that's a good call out and precisely why I asked.

jsheard 2y ago

Windows and Android took the commodity approach but they always had a business model, while Meta AI is currently running on Underpants Gnomes economics. 1. Spend billions on a product, then give it away for free. 2. ??? 3. Profit! > Then Meta announced open sourcing Horizon OS. Open sourcing isn't really the right term, they're allowing third party hardware vendors to use it but it's still proprietary. Horizon OS is built on top of Android and they're following the Android playbook where the core is technically open source but the version nearly everyone actually uses has a bunch of proprietary Google (or Meta) software layered on top, and Google (or Meta) dictates the terms of using that software, which lets them ensure that revenue always flows back to Google (or Meta) regardless of who made the hardware.

herval 2y ago
They use the models they opensource in their own products, no? I don’t think Meta is looking to profit selling LLMs…
- TechDebtDevin 2y ago
  > "I don’t think Meta is looking to profit selling LLMs…" Said no one ever.
  - dartos 2y ago
    OP said it… I also don’t think meta is looking to sell LLMs. Probably LLM backed products. Likely marketing tools if anything. But not the same way OAI sells LLMs
    - TechDebtDevin 2y ago
      Maybe not "sell" but if you look at my other comment on this post you'll see their valuation has increased 162 billion since they released their first open source model. They definitely are looking to profit, they just take a different approach to monetization. Same thing in my book.

KaiserPro 2y ago

OCP has been about for _years_. Almost since facebook was a thing. Facebook the site had a rich platform until they had to secure it against people stealing your data, and your mate's data and pretending that they had a really rich dataset on most of the western world's adult population (ie Cambridge analytica ) Horizon OS is a fucking mess and isn't anything really to do with Apple, its more to do with the making sure samsung don't use android for what ever shit they produce. OpenAI aren't going to compete with Meta, as they aren't in the same game. OpenAI has to make money from its offerings, Meta's AI shit is a byproduct of other things (see massive spending on "reality labs")

wubrr 2y ago

> That title is most definitely a swipe at OpenAI. Eh, 'OpenAI' is a swipe at OpenAI.

osrec 2y ago

What is EEE?

ArnoVW 2y ago
Embrace, Extend, Extinguish. Famously the Microsoft strategy against Java.
- EasyMark 2y ago
  Somewhat related to their FUD policy towards linux
- jameslk 2y ago
  Yes this is what I meant. Sorry I was being lazy at the keyboard
richardw 2y ago
I assume it’s embrace, extend, extinguish: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguish https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extingu...

hintymad 2y ago

OpenAI does not have its own platform yet but depend on Azure? If so, they probably should build their platform to squeeze out as much cost as possible.

johannes1234321 2y ago
They have their own platform - a platform to build AI tools on top of their API. The hardware layer below is abstracted away.

ipaddr 2y ago

macOS isn't a premium product over Windows nor is iOS over Android. Windows isn't really an open platform either. OpenAI is more open as it doesn't require logging in. A simple narrative doesn't exist connecting these three product battles. The only thing that comes to mind is macOS, iOS and OpenAI are designed for the novice. You could probably add Coinbase vs Binance or Uber vs Lyft or Facebook vs Google Plus and be able to keep that narrative.

teractiveodular 2y ago
Apple is undeniably a premium product for consumers, and its OSes get the halo effect from that. Whether they're "premium" to develop or even use for is an entirely different question.
russelg 2y ago
Ironically macOS is more "open" (as in source available) than Windows. https://opensource.apple.com/releases/ https://opensource.apple.com/releases/
- ipaddr 2y ago
  Microsoft was anti open source until the world changed. Windows was never open source or source available. It's ironic they own github. It is more shocking macOS is source available.
  - yjftsjthsd-h 2y ago
    > It is more shocking macOS is source available. Nitpick: It's actual Open Source, not Source Available. Not the whole thing, but what code they release is under permissive open source licenses.
    - yjftsjthsd-h 2y ago
      Sorry, mostly permissive licenses; there are a tiny number of copyleft things in there (famously, the last GPLv2 version of bash)

wkat4242 2y ago

Meta's VR wasn't really a lot more closed to be honest. They've just dropped the deep review process and anyone can now publish to the main store what was previously 'app lab'. They've been heading this way for a long time, a couple years ago they didn't even have app lab. And the OS being open isn't really that relevant unless you're a system integrator. I really doubt whether this is in response to Apple. They seem to operate in entirely different markets. I love VR but I can never buy a vision pro. It's twice what I've ever spent on my most expensive car.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
jameslk 2y ago
Oculus devices and AVP are presently in different categories from a cost perspective, but my understanding is the two companies were chasing after the same eventual market. Apple intended (intends?) on releasing a lower end device. Arguably AVP was meant as dev device anyway so devs could start building apps. And Meta was working on a higher end device until they nixed it after AVP sales tanked. Zuck himself went on a PR attack campaign about superiority of their technology vs Apple's. > “I finally tried Apple’s Vision Pro,” Zuckerberg says. “And I have to say, before this, I expected that Quest would be the better value for most people since it’s really good and seven times less expensive but after using it, I don’t just think Quest is the better value. I think Quest is the better product period.” The longer term horizon here seems to be that Reality Labs will release AR glasses that may have more mass appeal, and I would expect Apple will too.

ants_everywhere 2y ago

Apple is more about luxury branding than premium offering. I don't think OpenAI is trying to position its services as projecting wealth or style. Facebook's hardware designs don't really help them differentiate since they don't run a public cloud. If they release the open source hardware and successfully drum up interest, then it will be cheaper for them to procure hardware. Releasing Llama guards against Google AI dominance. Google and Facebook are longtime competitors and Google controls the OS on most phones Facebook needs to run its ads on. Open sourcing AI hardware guards against a potentially dominant Nvidia, especially if they team up with one of the cloud companies. I'm sure they're also worried about OpenAI, but at this point it doesn't look like OpenAI is on Facebook's turf.

jameslk 2y ago
> Apple is more about luxury branding than premium offering. I don't think OpenAI is trying to position its services as projecting wealth or style. What do you think OpenAI hired Jony Ive to do? ;) https://www.theverge.com/2024/9/21/24250867/jony-ive-confirms-collaboration-openai-hardware https://www.theverge.com/2024/9/21/24250867/jony-ive-confirm... Regardless, I meant premium as in better or dominant in the market. It's hard to overcome first mover advantage with a "me too" product, but "commoditizing your complement" seems to be a pretty effective disrupter. I think Meta is worried about Google, OpenAI, Anthropic, and anyone else with gen AI models. It seems to be related to where they're going.
spiderfarmer 2y ago
For many, the terms 'luxury' and 'premium' are interchangeable, signifying both high quality and exclusivity. Most Apple users, may not be able to list specific specs of their devices — a testament to the brand's focus on overall user experience rather than technical details. Ask any Apple user if their device is superior to that of the competition, and the majority will affirm it does, because it just feels premium.
- ein0p 2y ago
  Just as most Mercedes owners don’t really care how many horsepower the car has. It just has “enough”.

ein0p 2y ago

Meta knows it can’t be the top player in this space, their best play, therefore is to control the second tier. Ironically I think they aren’t even the best in the second tier - Mistral is.