6 ms·

My understanding is that fluoride is supposed to be applied topically, not ingested (hence the poison control warnings on toothpaste packaging). I'm also curiou

My understanding is that fluoride is supposed to be applied topically, not ingested (hence the poison control warnings on toothpaste packaging). I'm also curious to what extent research has been done all the other things fluoridated water is used for- bathing, cooking, pets, plants, etc. And the perverse incentives involved make me innately distrustful- the source of the fluoride for example (per this page that has apparently been removed from cdc.gov) https://web.archive.org/web/20240223213812/https://www.cdc.gov/fluoridation/engineering/engineering-shortages.htm https://web.archive.org/web/20240223213812/https://www.cdc.g... >The three fluoride additives used for water fluoridation are derived principally from phosphate fertilizer production.

strbean 2y ago
I'm fairly conspiracy-minded, but fluoride is prescribed for ingestion in some cases: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluoride_therapy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluoride_therapy I was prescribed fluoride tablets by my dentist as kid.
woodruffw 2y ago
Your fluoride toothpaste has much, much more fluoride in it per gram than municipally fluoridated water does. That, along with a bunch of other additives, is why it has a poison control warning. (A typical dab of fluoridated toothpaste has roughly as much fluoride as 2L of municipally fluoridated water.) The "it's a side product of industrial processes" argument is emotively salient for a lot of people. But it's worth noting that a lot of things are industrial side products: you presumably don't believe that bran is dangerous just because it's by-produced by milling flour.
- stuaxo 2y ago
  Children have less fluoride in toothpaste, they also tend to just eat or swallow the toothpaste.
  - adrian_b 2y ago
    I have seen many times this argument about children who cannot be taught that the toothpaste must not be swallowed, but I am skeptical about how many such children exist. As a small child, I certainly did plenty of stupid things, but none was of this kind. Perhaps that was due to the fact that my parents never imposed arbitrary prohibitions, but they always explained why it would be bad to do something that was forbidden for me. So if they said that toothpaste must not be swallowed, because it is toxic, I never swallowed it. Therefore I believe that if there exist such children who swallow toothpaste, that is entirely the fault of their parents. This is not a more normal behavior than eating stones or any other objects. Any children who are old enough to be able to wash their teeth by themselves should be old enough to know what may be eaten and what must not be eaten.
    - k4rli 2y ago
      I had a strawberry toothpaste as a child that had delicious flavor and consistency similar to other sweets. Cannot blame the parents for me eating small amounts of it on occasion. At least I'm pretty sure it was fluoride free.
    - xnyan 2y ago
      >Any children who are old enough to be able to wash their teeth by themselves should be old enough to know what may be eaten and what must not be eaten. My experience has been the opposite, it’s very common for kids to try to eat everything including toothpaste. you do your best to try to teach them not to do it, and use a low/no fluoride toothpaste in the meantime.
      - troyvit 2y ago
        Right? They make it taste good[1]. Kids eat stuff that tastes good. [1] https://www.target.com/s/kids+toothpaste https://www.target.com/s/kids+toothpaste
    - Karawebnetwork 2y ago
      I doubt it's a conscious choice. I am an adult and I avoid toothpaste with fluoride because no matter what I do, once toothpaste gets to the back of my tongue it simply falls into my throat. I would imagine that for a child without decades of swallowing food it's even harder to control or even notice.
fzeroracer 2y ago
Fluoridated water is literally all around us in naturally occurring springs and drinking water humans have used for thousands of years. Generally speaking, we have a very good idea of what the benefits are and what our general tolerance is for fluoridated water.
- adrian_b 2y ago
  That is true and that is why it is known that in the regions where the natural water has a high content in fluoride it affects negatively the bones of the humans who live there. The reasons why adding fluoride to drinking water is extremely stupid are that there exists no evidence whatsoever that the ingested fluoride can have any beneficial effect on teeth, there exists no known mechanism through which ingested fluoride can have any beneficial effect (the enamel of the teeth does not have blood vessels), but there is ample evidence that too much ingested fluoride is harmful. All the evidence about beneficial effects of fluoride is about the external contact between teeth and fluoride, when the fluoride ions substitute the hydroxide ions in enamel. This is a simple chemical reaction, it is not a biological reaction mediated by an enzyme. This beneficial effect is achieved best by the use of toothpaste or mouth washes with fluoride, which can provide much more fluoride than it would be safe to ingest. It is impossible to optimize the concentration of fluoride in drinking water for a maximum effect on teeth while not being harmful after ingestion, because the amount of water that is drunk daily is variable and unpredictable. Moreover, the fluoridated drinking water would have a much greater beneficial effect if one would keep the water in the mouth for some time before swallowing it, which nobody does, so most of the fluoride in the drinking water has no opportunity to provide any beneficial effect.
  - UltraSane 2y ago
    "there exists no evidence whatsoever that the ingested fluoride can have any beneficial effect on teeth" That is simply wrong. When fluoride comes into contact with developing teeth, it incorporates into the enamel crystal structure, forming fluorapatite, which is more resistant to acid attacks from bacteria that cause cavities.
  - fzeroracer 2y ago

strbean 2y ago

I'm fairly conspiracy-minded, but fluoride is prescribed for ingestion in some cases: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluoride_therapy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluoride_therapy I was prescribed fluoride tablets by my dentist as kid.

woodruffw 2y ago

Your fluoride toothpaste has much, much more fluoride in it per gram than municipally fluoridated water does. That, along with a bunch of other additives, is why it has a poison control warning. (A typical dab of fluoridated toothpaste has roughly as much fluoride as 2L of municipally fluoridated water.) The "it's a side product of industrial processes" argument is emotively salient for a lot of people. But it's worth noting that a lot of things are industrial side products: you presumably don't believe that bran is dangerous just because it's by-produced by milling flour.

stuaxo 2y ago
Children have less fluoride in toothpaste, they also tend to just eat or swallow the toothpaste.
- adrian_b 2y ago
  I have seen many times this argument about children who cannot be taught that the toothpaste must not be swallowed, but I am skeptical about how many such children exist. As a small child, I certainly did plenty of stupid things, but none was of this kind. Perhaps that was due to the fact that my parents never imposed arbitrary prohibitions, but they always explained why it would be bad to do something that was forbidden for me. So if they said that toothpaste must not be swallowed, because it is toxic, I never swallowed it. Therefore I believe that if there exist such children who swallow toothpaste, that is entirely the fault of their parents. This is not a more normal behavior than eating stones or any other objects. Any children who are old enough to be able to wash their teeth by themselves should be old enough to know what may be eaten and what must not be eaten.
  - k4rli 2y ago
    I had a strawberry toothpaste as a child that had delicious flavor and consistency similar to other sweets. Cannot blame the parents for me eating small amounts of it on occasion. At least I'm pretty sure it was fluoride free.
  - xnyan 2y ago
    >Any children who are old enough to be able to wash their teeth by themselves should be old enough to know what may be eaten and what must not be eaten. My experience has been the opposite, it’s very common for kids to try to eat everything including toothpaste. you do your best to try to teach them not to do it, and use a low/no fluoride toothpaste in the meantime.
    - troyvit 2y ago
      Right? They make it taste good[1]. Kids eat stuff that tastes good. [1] https://www.target.com/s/kids+toothpaste https://www.target.com/s/kids+toothpaste
  - Karawebnetwork 2y ago
    I doubt it's a conscious choice. I am an adult and I avoid toothpaste with fluoride because no matter what I do, once toothpaste gets to the back of my tongue it simply falls into my throat. I would imagine that for a child without decades of swallowing food it's even harder to control or even notice.

fzeroracer 2y ago

Fluoridated water is literally all around us in naturally occurring springs and drinking water humans have used for thousands of years. Generally speaking, we have a very good idea of what the benefits are and what our general tolerance is for fluoridated water.

adrian_b 2y ago
That is true and that is why it is known that in the regions where the natural water has a high content in fluoride it affects negatively the bones of the humans who live there. The reasons why adding fluoride to drinking water is extremely stupid are that there exists no evidence whatsoever that the ingested fluoride can have any beneficial effect on teeth, there exists no known mechanism through which ingested fluoride can have any beneficial effect (the enamel of the teeth does not have blood vessels), but there is ample evidence that too much ingested fluoride is harmful. All the evidence about beneficial effects of fluoride is about the external contact between teeth and fluoride, when the fluoride ions substitute the hydroxide ions in enamel. This is a simple chemical reaction, it is not a biological reaction mediated by an enzyme. This beneficial effect is achieved best by the use of toothpaste or mouth washes with fluoride, which can provide much more fluoride than it would be safe to ingest. It is impossible to optimize the concentration of fluoride in drinking water for a maximum effect on teeth while not being harmful after ingestion, because the amount of water that is drunk daily is variable and unpredictable. Moreover, the fluoridated drinking water would have a much greater beneficial effect if one would keep the water in the mouth for some time before swallowing it, which nobody does, so most of the fluoride in the drinking water has no opportunity to provide any beneficial effect.
- UltraSane 2y ago
  "there exists no evidence whatsoever that the ingested fluoride can have any beneficial effect on teeth" That is simply wrong. When fluoride comes into contact with developing teeth, it incorporates into the enamel crystal structure, forming fluorapatite, which is more resistant to acid attacks from bacteria that cause cavities.
- fzeroracer 2y ago