4 ms·

AFAIK Apple is the only mobile phone corporation who refuses to pay Motorola a royalty for the fundamental patent of a "portable hand-held telephone device".

by dhughes 14y ago

runjake 14y ago
Good? Because that seems absurd.
admiralpumpkin 14y ago
Reason: Motorola refused to offer them Fair Reasonable and Non-Discriminatory (FRAND) terms; unlike the terms given to the rest of the licensees.
- dhughes 14y ago
  But legally does that matter? Can a corporation pick and choose what patents/royalties or whatever they are to pay for if you use them just because the corporation deems it to be unfair?
  - sjwright 14y ago
    Absolutely, yes. And the other side is allowed to sue in court.
  - admiralpumpkin 14y ago
    Yes. It does. See recent case which was thrown out because they were trying to leverage FRAND patents inappropriately.
raganesh 14y ago
Let's talk about that in context. Motorola contributed some patents to a mobile telecom standard; they made a commitment to license these standard essential patents in Fair, Reasonable And Non-Discriminatory terms to everyone who wants to build a "portable hand-held telephone device". Motorola wants 2.25% of the sale price of each Apple device in which the standard is used. Now, if each patent contributor to the standard demands the same rate as Motorola, the outgo will be above 100%. Essentially, only those who have contributed to the patent pool can build a mobile phone. No one else can enter the market. How is that Fair, Reasonable or Non-Discriminatory? That is why there is talk about EU & FTC in US investigating Google/Motorola for anti-competitive behavior. Also, there is another interesting point here - all these patents are implemented in the baseband chip built by Qualcomm and used by Apple in its devices. Qualcomm has already paid the royalty for using Google/Motorola's patents. Now Motorola wants royalty from Apple also, for the same patents. Double-dipping anyone?
- mongol 14y ago
  Let's see here... Motorola together with telecom companies such as Nokia, Ericsson, Siemens etc worked for decades in establishing standards and infrastructure for digital mobile phones. In this they were truly succesful, and this would not have been possible unless they had shared patents with each other that were involved in common standards. Then, much later, enters Apple and brings nothing to the table with regards to telecom technology. Why should they not pay?
  - r0s 14y ago
    > would not have been possible unless they had shared patents with each other that were involved in common standards How generous of them to establish open standards like that eyeroll.
    - Produce 14y ago
      Seriously. The whole point here seems to be that people should pay a tax because other people are doing obvious fucking shit. Fuck patents.
  - raganesh 14y ago
    Apple should pay. No questions about that. But how much should they pay? In this special case of patents, Motorola is expected to charge Apple the same rates as other licensees. In fact, they have committed to do so. But now, they are going back on that commitment and also trying to double dip. FRAND (Fair, Reasonable And Non-Discriminatory) patent commitment is an essential part of standard setting process. If companies are allowed to abuse FRAND committed patents like this, there will be chaos. We'll go back to the digital dark ages when there were no standards or interoperability.
    - greyfade 14y ago
      I don't think Apple should pay. And I question whether anyone else should, either. These "standards-essential" patents are under RAND terms because to do otherwise devalues the patent and provides incentive for the standard to "work around" the patent. If Motorola wants revenue from that patent, they must license it under RAND terms. But now that there is significant investment in the infrastructure that uses these standards, what right does anyone have in threatening anyone else over their use of this patented technology? Judge Posner, presiding over Apple v. Motorola, which he has dismissed with prejudice, seems to feel the same way: That since Motorola has licensed their standards-essential patent under FRAND terms, they essentially lose their right to demand an injunction against Apple. (At least, that's my reading of his decision.) I.e., they are to negotiate reasonable terms or get no royalties at all. The question in my mind is at what point these patents should be expired early due to their status as standards-essential; for without them, the standard must be redesigned, and with them, every participant must pay royalties to one incumbent. At no point is this fair, reasonable, or non-discriminatory. Personally, I don't see the point of this run-around: These patents are not a reward for invention; they're cudgels with which to steal your competitor's lunch money. They should be invalidated or expired for that reason alone.

AFAIK Apple is the only mobile phone corporation who refuses to pay Motorola a royalty for the fundamental patent of a "portable hand-held telephone device".

by dhughes 14y ago

AFAIK Apple is the only mobile phone corporation who refuses to pay Motorola a royalty for the fundamental patent of a "portable hand-held telephone device".

runjake 14y ago

Good? Because that seems absurd.

admiralpumpkin 14y ago

Reason: Motorola refused to offer them Fair Reasonable and Non-Discriminatory (FRAND) terms; unlike the terms given to the rest of the licensees.

dhughes 14y ago
But legally does that matter? Can a corporation pick and choose what patents/royalties or whatever they are to pay for if you use them just because the corporation deems it to be unfair?
- sjwright 14y ago
  Absolutely, yes. And the other side is allowed to sue in court.
- admiralpumpkin 14y ago
  Yes. It does. See recent case which was thrown out because they were trying to leverage FRAND patents inappropriately.

raganesh 14y ago

Let's talk about that in context. Motorola contributed some patents to a mobile telecom standard; they made a commitment to license these standard essential patents in Fair, Reasonable And Non-Discriminatory terms to everyone who wants to build a "portable hand-held telephone device". Motorola wants 2.25% of the sale price of each Apple device in which the standard is used. Now, if each patent contributor to the standard demands the same rate as Motorola, the outgo will be above 100%. Essentially, only those who have contributed to the patent pool can build a mobile phone. No one else can enter the market. How is that Fair, Reasonable or Non-Discriminatory? That is why there is talk about EU & FTC in US investigating Google/Motorola for anti-competitive behavior. Also, there is another interesting point here - all these patents are implemented in the baseband chip built by Qualcomm and used by Apple in its devices. Qualcomm has already paid the royalty for using Google/Motorola's patents. Now Motorola wants royalty from Apple also, for the same patents. Double-dipping anyone?

mongol 14y ago
Let's see here... Motorola together with telecom companies such as Nokia, Ericsson, Siemens etc worked for decades in establishing standards and infrastructure for digital mobile phones. In this they were truly succesful, and this would not have been possible unless they had shared patents with each other that were involved in common standards. Then, much later, enters Apple and brings nothing to the table with regards to telecom technology. Why should they not pay?
- r0s 14y ago
  > would not have been possible unless they had shared patents with each other that were involved in common standards How generous of them to establish open standards like that eyeroll.
  - Produce 14y ago
    Seriously. The whole point here seems to be that people should pay a tax because other people are doing obvious fucking shit. Fuck patents.
- raganesh 14y ago
  Apple should pay. No questions about that. But how much should they pay? In this special case of patents, Motorola is expected to charge Apple the same rates as other licensees. In fact, they have committed to do so. But now, they are going back on that commitment and also trying to double dip. FRAND (Fair, Reasonable And Non-Discriminatory) patent commitment is an essential part of standard setting process. If companies are allowed to abuse FRAND committed patents like this, there will be chaos. We'll go back to the digital dark ages when there were no standards or interoperability.
  - greyfade 14y ago
    I don't think Apple should pay. And I question whether anyone else should, either. These "standards-essential" patents are under RAND terms because to do otherwise devalues the patent and provides incentive for the standard to "work around" the patent. If Motorola wants revenue from that patent, they must license it under RAND terms. But now that there is significant investment in the infrastructure that uses these standards, what right does anyone have in threatening anyone else over their use of this patented technology? Judge Posner, presiding over Apple v. Motorola, which he has dismissed with prejudice, seems to feel the same way: That since Motorola has licensed their standards-essential patent under FRAND terms, they essentially lose their right to demand an injunction against Apple. (At least, that's my reading of his decision.) I.e., they are to negotiate reasonable terms or get no royalties at all. The question in my mind is at what point these patents should be expired early due to their status as standards-essential; for without them, the standard must be redesigned, and with them, every participant must pay royalties to one incumbent. At no point is this fair, reasonable, or non-discriminatory. Personally, I don't see the point of this run-around: These patents are not a reward for invention; they're cudgels with which to steal your competitor's lunch money. They should be invalidated or expired for that reason alone.