4 ms·

The FreeBSD Code of Conduct mentions being welcoming to people regardless of religion, but by using imagery that explicitly comes from religious depictions of e

by veltas 2y ago

The FreeBSD Code of Conduct mentions being welcoming to people regardless of religion, but by using imagery that explicitly comes from religious depictions of evil in their logo they're blatantly being unwelcoming to a lot of religious people. Would they react differently (albeit more politely) if someone complained today, now the Code of Conduct exists, especially as 'fixing' this would require a full rebrand? I think the hotel guest was right to complain, and in my understanding of the Bible as a Christian I would say it is appropriate to refuse to do business with someone using such images, but also the image does not have any 'power'. That is, it is potentially immoral to associate with it, but the image shouldn't be 'scary' to any Christian, it's just a picture.

ulrikrasmussen 2y ago
You have a fair point in general, but in this particular case I think the guest is overreacting, and accommodating such people borders being tolerant to intolerance.
- veltas 2y ago
  I agree that the guest shouldn't have said it was 'abuse' to put the logo up. There is no actual harm that can come from that picture.
BSDobelix 2y ago
> blatantly being unwelcoming to a lot of religious people. It's maybe a clever tactic to keep religious extremists away. >as a Christian I would say it is appropriate to refuse to do business with someone using such images Send from a Iphone ;)
- veltas 2y ago
  > It's maybe a clever tactic to keep religious extremists away. Or a clever tactic to reduce diversity, because many diverse countries of the world are full of people who would be uncomfortable or wouldn't want to associate with such images, because of their culture and religion. > Send from a Iphone ;) Sent from Android, but besides the point. I've used FreeBSD and have tried to make it work for me. Unfortunately because of the logo I can't actually use it in general. For instance I wouldn't be comfortable using it with the church website I help maintain. I'm sure this is all just superstitious nonsense to you, but in truth this is part of my religion. Believing in the supernatural and sin is not 'extreme', unless you think Christianity in general is extreme. I'm not stopping you from being anti religious, or anti Christian. I don't it's good, but I think it would be wrong to force you to not be. But FreeBSD claims to abide by a code of welcoming all people regardless of religion, I'm pointing out the hypocrisy here.
  - oneeyedpigeon 2y ago
    > Or a clever tactic to reduce diversity This is a difficult one to judge because, while the logo may keep some extremists away which, I agree, would reduce diversity, a policy of kowtowing to such extremists may keep more open-minded people away instead.
    - veltas 2y ago
      Careful reading you'll see I'm not asking for diversity for extremists.
  - BSDobelix 2y ago
    >I'm not stopping you from being anti religious, or anti Christian. I am a catholic, but thanks for the "anti Christian" label, you see that's what i mean with extremism ;)
    - defrost 2y ago
      As I recall, didn't Catholics cement themselves as anti-Christian religuous extremists with the Albigensian Crusade? Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius seems pretty extreme. Apocryphal quotes aside there's a well documented long history of intolerance of core cannon heresy.
      - BSDobelix 2y ago
        Your are right, now i know that the whole time i was the extremist by birth. >Apocryphal quotes aside there's a well documented long history of intolerance of core cannon heresy. Like with every single religion right?
        defrost 2y ago
        Pretty sure there's a modicum of diversity there .. Father Bob McGuire's no Christian Brother or Cardinal George Pell. You might be one of the good ones ... :) > Like with every single religion right? Eh, dunno about that, there's a lot of variation - off hand I don't think the Baháʼí engaged in many pograms or inquisitions .. other religions have notably dabbled in many such things.
troad 2y ago
The hotel guest was certainly not right to complain. There are people - often religious - who have a funny definition of "welcoming" which comes perilously close to "either believe as I do, or at least have the decency to pretend that you do in public." Shucks to that. The guest is demanding that others sacrifice their own integrity to stroke her ego, and placate her obviously fragile beliefs. It is not the job of everyone else in the world to suspend their beliefs to sustain yours. We have a word for such a demand. It's intolerance. Of course, most religious people are nothing like this (shout out to you, the lovely ones!), and some irreligious people are exactly like this, but intolerance is a trait that does naturally correlate with all-encompassing systems of belief.
- veltas 2y ago
  > It is not the job of everyone else in the world to suspend their beliefs to sustain yours. If you have a business called "666 Flowers and Cakes" then a lot of Christians won't go there, and some might confront you about it. This isn't demanding or controlling thought, it's just freedom of association. Nobody's forcing FreeBSD to do anything, but I'm pointing out the logo is at odds with their code of conduct. The woman in story also seemed to go further and make claims about abuse, which is obviously nonsense and goes too far. But no, you're not going to be welcoming to religious people by branding with things associated with evil in that religion.
  - troad 2y ago
    I'd respectfully submit that Christians "confronting" me over what I decide to call my business is a fantastic example of someone trying to control the conduct and speech of others. There's a horrendous double standard around religion in our society, whereby religious people demanding things of others is always some beautiful instance of protected religious self expression, but any obligation on religious people to tolerate others is a grievous violation of their religious liberty. It is infeasible to suggest that I must check with every fringe religious movement before I name things, or choose mascots. But worse, it's intolerant. I have the right to my own beliefs, and to act and speak in accordance with those beliefs. It is no one's business but mine if I decide to open a shop called "Lucifer's Lamps & Light Fixtures". Tolerance does not consist in pretending to all think alike, it requires genuine acceptance that others believe and speak differently, and that that's OK.
oneeyedpigeon 2y ago
> The FreeBSD Code of Conduct mentions being welcoming to people regardless of religion, but by using imagery that explicitly comes from religious depictions of evil in their logo they're blatantly being unwelcoming to a lot of religious people. When you use the term "religion" here, are you referring to an immutable set of 'official' religions? If so, which religions are in the set? If it's not immutable, how does a religion get added to the set? If it's not a closed set, would you be willing to cease using or promoting anything that has a logo on that offends my religion?
- veltas 2y ago
  I'm just reading what they wrote, and making as few assumptions as possible about their intent. Do you have a specific disagreement about my interpretation?

by veltas 2y ago

ulrikrasmussen 2y ago

You have a fair point in general, but in this particular case I think the guest is overreacting, and accommodating such people borders being tolerant to intolerance.

veltas 2y ago
I agree that the guest shouldn't have said it was 'abuse' to put the logo up. There is no actual harm that can come from that picture.

BSDobelix 2y ago

> blatantly being unwelcoming to a lot of religious people. It's maybe a clever tactic to keep religious extremists away. >as a Christian I would say it is appropriate to refuse to do business with someone using such images Send from a Iphone ;)

veltas 2y ago
> It's maybe a clever tactic to keep religious extremists away. Or a clever tactic to reduce diversity, because many diverse countries of the world are full of people who would be uncomfortable or wouldn't want to associate with such images, because of their culture and religion. > Send from a Iphone ;) Sent from Android, but besides the point. I've used FreeBSD and have tried to make it work for me. Unfortunately because of the logo I can't actually use it in general. For instance I wouldn't be comfortable using it with the church website I help maintain. I'm sure this is all just superstitious nonsense to you, but in truth this is part of my religion. Believing in the supernatural and sin is not 'extreme', unless you think Christianity in general is extreme. I'm not stopping you from being anti religious, or anti Christian. I don't it's good, but I think it would be wrong to force you to not be. But FreeBSD claims to abide by a code of welcoming all people regardless of religion, I'm pointing out the hypocrisy here.
- oneeyedpigeon 2y ago
  > Or a clever tactic to reduce diversity This is a difficult one to judge because, while the logo may keep some extremists away which, I agree, would reduce diversity, a policy of kowtowing to such extremists may keep more open-minded people away instead.
  - veltas 2y ago
    Careful reading you'll see I'm not asking for diversity for extremists.
- BSDobelix 2y ago
  >I'm not stopping you from being anti religious, or anti Christian. I am a catholic, but thanks for the "anti Christian" label, you see that's what i mean with extremism ;)
  - defrost 2y ago
    As I recall, didn't Catholics cement themselves as anti-Christian religuous extremists with the Albigensian Crusade? Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius seems pretty extreme. Apocryphal quotes aside there's a well documented long history of intolerance of core cannon heresy.
    - BSDobelix 2y ago
      Your are right, now i know that the whole time i was the extremist by birth. >Apocryphal quotes aside there's a well documented long history of intolerance of core cannon heresy. Like with every single religion right?
      - defrost 2y ago
        Pretty sure there's a modicum of diversity there .. Father Bob McGuire's no Christian Brother or Cardinal George Pell. You might be one of the good ones ... :) > Like with every single religion right? Eh, dunno about that, there's a lot of variation - off hand I don't think the Baháʼí engaged in many pograms or inquisitions .. other religions have notably dabbled in many such things.

troad 2y ago

The hotel guest was certainly not right to complain. There are people - often religious - who have a funny definition of "welcoming" which comes perilously close to "either believe as I do, or at least have the decency to pretend that you do in public." Shucks to that. The guest is demanding that others sacrifice their own integrity to stroke her ego, and placate her obviously fragile beliefs. It is not the job of everyone else in the world to suspend their beliefs to sustain yours. We have a word for such a demand. It's intolerance. Of course, most religious people are nothing like this (shout out to you, the lovely ones!), and some irreligious people are exactly like this, but intolerance is a trait that does naturally correlate with all-encompassing systems of belief.

veltas 2y ago
> It is not the job of everyone else in the world to suspend their beliefs to sustain yours. If you have a business called "666 Flowers and Cakes" then a lot of Christians won't go there, and some might confront you about it. This isn't demanding or controlling thought, it's just freedom of association. Nobody's forcing FreeBSD to do anything, but I'm pointing out the logo is at odds with their code of conduct. The woman in story also seemed to go further and make claims about abuse, which is obviously nonsense and goes too far. But no, you're not going to be welcoming to religious people by branding with things associated with evil in that religion.
- troad 2y ago
  I'd respectfully submit that Christians "confronting" me over what I decide to call my business is a fantastic example of someone trying to control the conduct and speech of others. There's a horrendous double standard around religion in our society, whereby religious people demanding things of others is always some beautiful instance of protected religious self expression, but any obligation on religious people to tolerate others is a grievous violation of their religious liberty. It is infeasible to suggest that I must check with every fringe religious movement before I name things, or choose mascots. But worse, it's intolerant. I have the right to my own beliefs, and to act and speak in accordance with those beliefs. It is no one's business but mine if I decide to open a shop called "Lucifer's Lamps & Light Fixtures". Tolerance does not consist in pretending to all think alike, it requires genuine acceptance that others believe and speak differently, and that that's OK.

oneeyedpigeon 2y ago

> The FreeBSD Code of Conduct mentions being welcoming to people regardless of religion, but by using imagery that explicitly comes from religious depictions of evil in their logo they're blatantly being unwelcoming to a lot of religious people. When you use the term "religion" here, are you referring to an immutable set of 'official' religions? If so, which religions are in the set? If it's not immutable, how does a religion get added to the set? If it's not a closed set, would you be willing to cease using or promoting anything that has a logo on that offends my religion?

veltas 2y ago
I'm just reading what they wrote, and making as few assumptions as possible about their intent. Do you have a specific disagreement about my interpretation?