4 ms·

Grandmaster expelled from team chess championship after phone found in toilet

57 points by seanhunter 2y ago

Hutrio 2y ago
This is almost comical. Why did he want to be caught so badly? Or did he stack all of his skill points in chess, to the detriment of common sense?
- the_gorilla 2y ago
  Unfortunately being good at chess doesn't make you smart. It just makes you good at chess.
  - kstrauser 2y ago
    There’s a reason D&D has intelligence and wisdom as separate attributes.
  - tessierashpool9 2y ago
    if you are a chess grand master then you are also smart. leaving evidence behind can be attributed to nervousness or being a bit scatter brained.
    - torlok 2y ago
      If you're a chess grandmaster then you're good at a game.
      - tessierashpool9 2y ago
        you sure you understand what grandmaster in chess means?
        torlok 2y ago
        Yes, it means you're better than others at chess.
        tessierashpool9 2y ago
        I'm not better than others at chess?
    - me_me_me 2y ago
      * Mr. Kramnik has entered the room *
    - binary132 2y ago
      never heard of a low functioning savant?
  - ikekkdcjkfke 2y ago
    I still want to see Magnus Carlsons neural net applied to another domain. IF it supports generics
0cf8612b2e1e 2y ago
For me I would say things started to get strange at move six. He played his move and left the playing hall for more than 10 minutes and this was repeated many times in the next moves. I thought he had some stomach problems! But at some point I decided to go out to see where he is and he was standing outside the toilet room and when he saw me he went back to the playing hall. And then at some point in the game he stopped going out till the game was finished. Multiple extended length “bathroom” breaks and he thought nobody would be suspicious? He probably could have just consulted for one move and nobody would have caught wise.
- Ekaros 2y ago
  To me that is comically atrocious way to cheat... Like was there any time spend to think more sensible approach?
perihelions 2y ago
One comment about the source (chess.com): it has a conflict of interest in this topic and has a clear bias in what it does and doesn't say. They omit that the cheater in question is a prominent member of their own chess platform, who has been scoring first-place in high-profile sitewide tournaments [0]. IMO the most interesting question here, which this source would prefer to elide over, is whether or not this over-the-board (meatspace) cheater has also been cheating for profit on the internet platforms—something that's technically much easier to do than in a professional, arbitrated tournament setting. This is sort of an existential question for their business. Chess.com currently operates one of the two major online chess platforms. Their top public-image controversy, going back years, is whether or not their anti-computer cheating methods are effective and accurate. (This question has even made it into the Wall Street Journal [1]). Their system is a "security by obscurity" type, which both relies on cheaters not knowing how it works, and asks paying customers to trust the company's claims, without evidence, that their competitive platform is fair and fundamentally sound. I think this revelation is going to (rightly) enflame that debate—though you won't read much about it on chess.com's own blog. [0] https://www.chess.com/news/view/shevchenko-svane-win-titled-tuesday-october-8-2024 https://www.chess.com/news/view/shevchenko-svane-win-titled-... ("GMs Kirill Shevchenko and Frederik Svane are your winners for the October 8 editions of Titled Tuesday") [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33085649 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33085649 ("Chess Investigation Finds U.S. Grandmaster ‘Likely Cheated’ More Than 100 Times (wsj.com)" (2022))
- gurchik 2y ago
  GM Denis Kadric (currently rated 309th worldwide) was just banned by Chess.com for allegedly cheating, and has no ability to appeal or see evidence used in the decision. https://old.reddit.com/r/chess/comments/1fz4snq/gm_denis_kadric_vs_chesscom/ https://old.reddit.com/r/chess/comments/1fz4snq/gm_denis_kad... Not only is the website the de facto platform for online play, some tournaments also use it for in-person games. The site has essentially become a chess authority organization of its own right. Its staff operate as judge, jury, and executioner behind closed doors. While I’m sure the majority of banned accounts were blatantly cheating, their team has apparently taken input from ChatGPT to run “simulations” to determine cheating probabilities. https://old.reddit.com/r/ChatGPT/comments/1873ocq/chesscom_claims_they_conducted_probabilistic/ https://old.reddit.com/r/ChatGPT/comments/1873ocq/chesscom_c...
ofermend 2y ago
I remember the Magnus/Niemann controversy from 2023 - that was quite a drama... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlsen%E2%80%93Niemann_controversy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlsen%E2%80%93Niemann_contro...
billforsternz 2y ago
This guy is 2656 and the world number 69. You might think, meh, so what who's heard of the world number 69 at, say, tennis. But if you are a serious chess player you understand that is an astronomically high level that is completely out of reach for 99.9% of people even if you love the game and devote many years of effort to it. (No doubt the same sentiment would occur to a serious tennis player in the tennis analogy). I have two points really A) As a chess player and a programmer, I think many a programmer fancies themselves as being a rock star performer but if there was an equivalent of Elo ratings for programmers it would likely be a very sobering experience for almost everybody [I think I am a highly skilled programmer, but my chess rating is 1867]. And B) It is consequently a real personal tragedy for this guy that he has foolishly flushed his career and reputation at age 22. What a waste.
- marcheradiuju 2y ago
  For reference, chess skill has a function indicating likelihood to beat a player of another rank (I don't recall the ratios). This user's chess skill dwarfs mine (1400s), might be higher than anyone I've ever played with in person. I can stomp all my acquaintances easily, but this person might never lose a game to me, no matter how many we play. There's something deeply gratifying about the formalization of chess skill like this imo, it keeps everyone humble. It's good to meet other players, cheers. That said, I'm only surprised that such a high-ranking player was caught so easily with cheating. I've been expecting for many years that the problem of catching cheating in chess is complicated by motivated cheaters being necessarily intellectual, therefore hiding it well. We may never know our best cheaters, at least during their professional careers, and it's a little disheartening knowing even top100 players can overtly toss away their prospects this way. It would be a surprise for anyone this high to not be invested in chess in multiple financial avenues, so this really is like shooting yourself in the foot.
  - billforsternz 2y ago
    Agreed. I've been taking the game seriously for 50 years, I'm recognised as a CM (Candidate Master) by FIDE the international chess federation. I devoted years of my life to writing my chess workbench Tarrasch https://triplehappy.com https://triplehappy.com. I've beaten an IM and FMs in FIDE rated classical events (I've played 3 GMs and fallen short each time - highlight was Australian GM Darryl Johanssen telling me in our post-mortem "at least you got to play one fantastic move"). Yet this guy at 22 has chess skill that dwarfs mine. An 800 Elo gap means his expectation is something like 99.9%.
metalman 2y ago
some basic level of formal culture in chess went missing. Chess is a battle in a war,fought with the mind,and conforming to the ancient rules of engagement and decorum. Certainly in the recent past,the outcome of a match between the representitives of adversarial nations was treated as proof of the intelectual and educational prowess of the winning side. What we are watching is the inevitable consiquence of comodifying everything,and the ho hummyness of the incident bieng disscused is the sound of the door closing.

57 points by seanhunter 2y ago

This is almost comical. Why did he want to be caught so badly? Or did he stack all of his skill points in chess, to the detriment of common sense?

the_gorilla 2y ago
Unfortunately being good at chess doesn't make you smart. It just makes you good at chess.
- kstrauser 2y ago
  There’s a reason D&D has intelligence and wisdom as separate attributes.
- tessierashpool9 2y ago
  if you are a chess grand master then you are also smart. leaving evidence behind can be attributed to nervousness or being a bit scatter brained.
  - torlok 2y ago
    If you're a chess grandmaster then you're good at a game.
    - tessierashpool9 2y ago
      you sure you understand what grandmaster in chess means?
      - torlok 2y ago
        Yes, it means you're better than others at chess.
        tessierashpool9 2y ago
        I'm not better than others at chess?
  - me_me_me 2y ago
    * Mr. Kramnik has entered the room *
  - binary132 2y ago
    never heard of a low functioning savant?
- ikekkdcjkfke 2y ago
  I still want to see Magnus Carlsons neural net applied to another domain. IF it supports generics

0cf8612b2e1e 2y ago

For me I would say things started to get strange at move six. He played his move and left the playing hall for more than 10 minutes and this was repeated many times in the next moves. I thought he had some stomach problems! But at some point I decided to go out to see where he is and he was standing outside the toilet room and when he saw me he went back to the playing hall. And then at some point in the game he stopped going out till the game was finished. Multiple extended length “bathroom” breaks and he thought nobody would be suspicious? He probably could have just consulted for one move and nobody would have caught wise.

Ekaros 2y ago
To me that is comically atrocious way to cheat... Like was there any time spend to think more sensible approach?

perihelions 2y ago

One comment about the source (chess.com): it has a conflict of interest in this topic and has a clear bias in what it does and doesn't say. They omit that the cheater in question is a prominent member of their own chess platform, who has been scoring first-place in high-profile sitewide tournaments [0]. IMO the most interesting question here, which this source would prefer to elide over, is whether or not this over-the-board (meatspace) cheater has also been cheating for profit on the internet platforms—something that's technically much easier to do than in a professional, arbitrated tournament setting. This is sort of an existential question for their business. Chess.com currently operates one of the two major online chess platforms. Their top public-image controversy, going back years, is whether or not their anti-computer cheating methods are effective and accurate. (This question has even made it into the Wall Street Journal [1]). Their system is a "security by obscurity" type, which both relies on cheaters not knowing how it works, and asks paying customers to trust the company's claims, without evidence, that their competitive platform is fair and fundamentally sound. I think this revelation is going to (rightly) enflame that debate—though you won't read much about it on chess.com's own blog. [0] https://www.chess.com/news/view/shevchenko-svane-win-titled-tuesday-october-8-2024 https://www.chess.com/news/view/shevchenko-svane-win-titled-... ("GMs Kirill Shevchenko and Frederik Svane are your winners for the October 8 editions of Titled Tuesday") [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33085649 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33085649 ("Chess Investigation Finds U.S. Grandmaster ‘Likely Cheated’ More Than 100 Times (wsj.com)" (2022))

gurchik 2y ago
GM Denis Kadric (currently rated 309th worldwide) was just banned by Chess.com for allegedly cheating, and has no ability to appeal or see evidence used in the decision. https://old.reddit.com/r/chess/comments/1fz4snq/gm_denis_kadric_vs_chesscom/ https://old.reddit.com/r/chess/comments/1fz4snq/gm_denis_kad... Not only is the website the de facto platform for online play, some tournaments also use it for in-person games. The site has essentially become a chess authority organization of its own right. Its staff operate as judge, jury, and executioner behind closed doors. While I’m sure the majority of banned accounts were blatantly cheating, their team has apparently taken input from ChatGPT to run “simulations” to determine cheating probabilities. https://old.reddit.com/r/ChatGPT/comments/1873ocq/chesscom_claims_they_conducted_probabilistic/ https://old.reddit.com/r/ChatGPT/comments/1873ocq/chesscom_c...

ofermend 2y ago

I remember the Magnus/Niemann controversy from 2023 - that was quite a drama... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlsen%E2%80%93Niemann_controversy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlsen%E2%80%93Niemann_contro...

billforsternz 2y ago

This guy is 2656 and the world number 69. You might think, meh, so what who's heard of the world number 69 at, say, tennis. But if you are a serious chess player you understand that is an astronomically high level that is completely out of reach for 99.9% of people even if you love the game and devote many years of effort to it. (No doubt the same sentiment would occur to a serious tennis player in the tennis analogy). I have two points really A) As a chess player and a programmer, I think many a programmer fancies themselves as being a rock star performer but if there was an equivalent of Elo ratings for programmers it would likely be a very sobering experience for almost everybody [I think I am a highly skilled programmer, but my chess rating is 1867]. And B) It is consequently a real personal tragedy for this guy that he has foolishly flushed his career and reputation at age 22. What a waste.

marcheradiuju 2y ago
For reference, chess skill has a function indicating likelihood to beat a player of another rank (I don't recall the ratios). This user's chess skill dwarfs mine (1400s), might be higher than anyone I've ever played with in person. I can stomp all my acquaintances easily, but this person might never lose a game to me, no matter how many we play. There's something deeply gratifying about the formalization of chess skill like this imo, it keeps everyone humble. It's good to meet other players, cheers. That said, I'm only surprised that such a high-ranking player was caught so easily with cheating. I've been expecting for many years that the problem of catching cheating in chess is complicated by motivated cheaters being necessarily intellectual, therefore hiding it well. We may never know our best cheaters, at least during their professional careers, and it's a little disheartening knowing even top100 players can overtly toss away their prospects this way. It would be a surprise for anyone this high to not be invested in chess in multiple financial avenues, so this really is like shooting yourself in the foot.
- billforsternz 2y ago
  Agreed. I've been taking the game seriously for 50 years, I'm recognised as a CM (Candidate Master) by FIDE the international chess federation. I devoted years of my life to writing my chess workbench Tarrasch https://triplehappy.com https://triplehappy.com. I've beaten an IM and FMs in FIDE rated classical events (I've played 3 GMs and fallen short each time - highlight was Australian GM Darryl Johanssen telling me in our post-mortem "at least you got to play one fantastic move"). Yet this guy at 22 has chess skill that dwarfs mine. An 800 Elo gap means his expectation is something like 99.9%.

metalman 2y ago

some basic level of formal culture in chess went missing. Chess is a battle in a war,fought with the mind,and conforming to the ancient rules of engagement and decorum. Certainly in the recent past,the outcome of a match between the representitives of adversarial nations was treated as proof of the intelectual and educational prowess of the winning side. What we are watching is the inevitable consiquence of comodifying everything,and the ho hummyness of the incident bieng disscused is the sound of the door closing.