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How is stuff like this not considered fraud? This seems much worse to me than Musk's usual Tesla lies in which he is predicting some future capability. At lea

by slg 2y ago

How is stuff like this not considered fraud? This seems much worse to me than Musk's usual Tesla lies in which he is predicting some future capability. At least there is an argument that Musk believed it those at the time he said them or that they were optimistically possible despite being impractical. This seems to be material misrepresentation of the viability of one of the company's core R&D projects that Musk claims "will be the biggest product ever".

_ea1k 2y ago
Quite a few people at the event asked employees about this and were directly given the answer. It wasn't a secret.
- standardUser 2y ago
  The fact that the fraud was lazy and blatant makes it worse, not better.
  - jkestner 2y ago
    Less lazy than a dancer in a skin tight robot suit. Progress!
- slg 2y ago
  Were you at the event or do you have a source for that claim? I have seen video of one of the bots refusing to give an answer to that question and there were multiple articles in the wake of the event that couldn't come to any definitive conclusion so I'm skeptical of this claim of immediate transparency.
  - silisili 2y ago
    Is this the video you saw (posting below, for you and anyone who hasn't seen it). While ignoring the question the first time, he did confirm that they were being assisted by a human. Perhaps not as clear as 'remotely operated', but that's about how I took the answer. YMMV. https://x.com/zhen9436/status/1844773471240294651 https://x.com/zhen9436/status/1844773471240294651
    - slg 2y ago
      No, the one I saw ducked the question multiple times so that video is more informative even if "assisted by a human" is still somewhat vague. I guess they just left what to disclose up to the individual operator making the level of deception dependent on who you happened to ask. Such a bizarre way to handle an event like this, but I guess that type of haphazard approach should be unsurprising for a Musk run company at this point.
  - _ea1k 2y ago
    I didn't go, but I saw the video that someone else linked. Also, during the event DirtyTesla was telling people that he was told they were remotely operated. I don't think he had insider knowledge, just answers from workers. I did see that a few other people seemed to get more vague answers, notably including MKBHD. It seems strange that there wasn't consistent messaging.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- me_me_me 2y ago
  Everyone working for Elisabeth Holmes knew it was all fake is not an excuse that worked for her
sys64739 2y ago
Nikola (Trevor Milton) was busted for fraud for insinuating that trucks rolling down slopes were working models.
- schmidtleonard 2y ago
  > insinuating Didn't he say "this is not a pusher?"
- jojobas 2y ago
  Tesla (Elon Musk) is under investigation for fraud for insinuating robotaxies are just around the corner, and you should buy the already available hardware for 100k that'll yield you 30k/year in the near future. When it became public knowledge, more value was written off Tesla stock than Enron, Theranos and Nikola combined.
paul7986 2y ago
Didn't OpenAI demo facetime with a H.E.R. like chatbot/AI friend in April? Where is that.. it's not available to anyone I know and was that actual real tech running or just faked demos? The tech playbook is hype even if it's not real and or really exists ... hype it up .. make them pay for the promise of something they think exists but it doesnt. Similar thing here Musk following the technology/startup playbook ... hype hype hype make people think it's real .. boost stocks as Open AI boosted it's subscription revenue Im sure in April of a promise of something that may or may not exist.
- SmooL 2y ago
  That OpenAI demo is available right now to subscribers; I have access to it
- WatchDog 2y ago
  The safety people got a hold of it, but they did end up releasing it, although it refuses to do a lot of simple stuff you ask it to.
  - paul7986 2y ago
    I subscribed twice and felt screwed not going to subscribe again until i see a live in person demo and or a trusted tech news source saying its available to all with a video showing them using it. Is there a recent such tech news report saying and showing such? Be good to see it! I did startups and played this hype and create fake content/news to boost metrics and saw results. And yet i signed up twice lol
  - ActionHank 2y ago
    “The safety people” are gone. OpenAI is just very comfortable lying right around the time google is doing a big public announcement. Where is Sora? Everyone and their dog has video gen out now, Sora is conspicuously absent.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
deleted 2y ago
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jcranmer 2y ago
Fraud is a material misstatement of fact to induce someone to do something. It's really not clear that there's any actual inducement here; this isn't exactly the centerpoint of a pitch video to investors. (As it turns out, Tesla's stock went down like 9% the next day after the event, with most of the analysts' reactions to the announcement essentially being "okay, so he doesn't really have anything that he wasn't already pitching").
Palmik 2y ago
Did you know that many demos on events like Google IO are scripted or hardcoded? I'm saying that not to advocate for such practices, but rather to provide context. For what it's worth, it was quite clear to many that the robots are teleoperated and it still serves as a demonstration of the hardware.
tim333 2y ago
Musk's speech: >So now one of the things we wanted to show tonight was uh that Optimus is not a canned video. It's not walled off. The Optimus robots will walk among you. Please please be nice to the Optimus robots. So you'll be able to walk right up to them and um they'll serve drinks at the bar and uh you'll directly - I mean that's it's it's a wild experience just to have humanoid robots and it's they're there they just in front of you. Uh so yeah with that um let's party. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6v6dbxPlsXs&t=1355s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6v6dbxPlsXs&t=1355s So he didn't actually say autonomous. I think you'd have a job proving fraud there.
- jccooper 2y ago
  Elon's a master at saying things that people read as something more than he actually said. I knew without seeing it that there's 0 chance that he (or anyone) actually said they're autonomous. But also that he didn't say they're not.

by slg 2y ago

_ea1k 2y ago

Quite a few people at the event asked employees about this and were directly given the answer. It wasn't a secret.

standardUser 2y ago
The fact that the fraud was lazy and blatant makes it worse, not better.
- jkestner 2y ago
  Less lazy than a dancer in a skin tight robot suit. Progress!
slg 2y ago
Were you at the event or do you have a source for that claim? I have seen video of one of the bots refusing to give an answer to that question and there were multiple articles in the wake of the event that couldn't come to any definitive conclusion so I'm skeptical of this claim of immediate transparency.
- silisili 2y ago
  Is this the video you saw (posting below, for you and anyone who hasn't seen it). While ignoring the question the first time, he did confirm that they were being assisted by a human. Perhaps not as clear as 'remotely operated', but that's about how I took the answer. YMMV. https://x.com/zhen9436/status/1844773471240294651 https://x.com/zhen9436/status/1844773471240294651
  - slg 2y ago
    No, the one I saw ducked the question multiple times so that video is more informative even if "assisted by a human" is still somewhat vague. I guess they just left what to disclose up to the individual operator making the level of deception dependent on who you happened to ask. Such a bizarre way to handle an event like this, but I guess that type of haphazard approach should be unsurprising for a Musk run company at this point.
- _ea1k 2y ago
  I didn't go, but I saw the video that someone else linked. Also, during the event DirtyTesla was telling people that he was told they were remotely operated. I don't think he had insider knowledge, just answers from workers. I did see that a few other people seemed to get more vague answers, notably including MKBHD. It seems strange that there wasn't consistent messaging.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
me_me_me 2y ago
Everyone working for Elisabeth Holmes knew it was all fake is not an excuse that worked for her

sys64739 2y ago

Nikola (Trevor Milton) was busted for fraud for insinuating that trucks rolling down slopes were working models.

schmidtleonard 2y ago
> insinuating Didn't he say "this is not a pusher?"
jojobas 2y ago
Tesla (Elon Musk) is under investigation for fraud for insinuating robotaxies are just around the corner, and you should buy the already available hardware for 100k that'll yield you 30k/year in the near future. When it became public knowledge, more value was written off Tesla stock than Enron, Theranos and Nikola combined.

paul7986 2y ago

Didn't OpenAI demo facetime with a H.E.R. like chatbot/AI friend in April? Where is that.. it's not available to anyone I know and was that actual real tech running or just faked demos? The tech playbook is hype even if it's not real and or really exists ... hype it up .. make them pay for the promise of something they think exists but it doesnt. Similar thing here Musk following the technology/startup playbook ... hype hype hype make people think it's real .. boost stocks as Open AI boosted it's subscription revenue Im sure in April of a promise of something that may or may not exist.

SmooL 2y ago
That OpenAI demo is available right now to subscribers; I have access to it
WatchDog 2y ago
The safety people got a hold of it, but they did end up releasing it, although it refuses to do a lot of simple stuff you ask it to.
- paul7986 2y ago
  I subscribed twice and felt screwed not going to subscribe again until i see a live in person demo and or a trusted tech news source saying its available to all with a video showing them using it. Is there a recent such tech news report saying and showing such? Be good to see it! I did startups and played this hype and create fake content/news to boost metrics and saw results. And yet i signed up twice lol
- ActionHank 2y ago
  “The safety people” are gone. OpenAI is just very comfortable lying right around the time google is doing a big public announcement. Where is Sora? Everyone and their dog has video gen out now, Sora is conspicuously absent.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

jcranmer 2y ago

Fraud is a material misstatement of fact to induce someone to do something. It's really not clear that there's any actual inducement here; this isn't exactly the centerpoint of a pitch video to investors. (As it turns out, Tesla's stock went down like 9% the next day after the event, with most of the analysts' reactions to the announcement essentially being "okay, so he doesn't really have anything that he wasn't already pitching").

Palmik 2y ago

Did you know that many demos on events like Google IO are scripted or hardcoded? I'm saying that not to advocate for such practices, but rather to provide context. For what it's worth, it was quite clear to many that the robots are teleoperated and it still serves as a demonstration of the hardware.

tim333 2y ago

Musk's speech: >So now one of the things we wanted to show tonight was uh that Optimus is not a canned video. It's not walled off. The Optimus robots will walk among you. Please please be nice to the Optimus robots. So you'll be able to walk right up to them and um they'll serve drinks at the bar and uh you'll directly - I mean that's it's it's a wild experience just to have humanoid robots and it's they're there they just in front of you. Uh so yeah with that um let's party. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6v6dbxPlsXs&t=1355s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6v6dbxPlsXs&t=1355s So he didn't actually say autonomous. I think you'd have a job proving fraud there.

jccooper 2y ago
Elon's a master at saying things that people read as something more than he actually said. I knew without seeing it that there's 0 chance that he (or anyone) actually said they're autonomous. But also that he didn't say they're not.