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idk. USA people seem to be the only ones obsessed with him sometimes to a point as treating him as a hero from their history also people often treat it as the

idk. USA people seem to be the only ones obsessed with him sometimes to a point as treating him as a hero from their history also people often treat it as the beloved kind of "small person who know better even through everyone told them they where wrong and succeeded by not giving up" story but the funny thing is the more you learn about him the more you might realize how wrong all of this is firstly he hadn't had success because he knew better (and people didn't believe him) he had success because he insisted that his absurdly wrong calculations where correct and then had a absurd amount of luck. (In educated circles of that time not only was it well know that earth was a globe, it rough size was also known. The reason he believed he could sail to India was because he insisted that earth was _way_ smaller then it actual is (and also was believed to be in general back then). It's just people (including him!) through there was no additional landmass between the west of Portugal and ~east India. Consider sailing that route on a world where America is just more water... pretty much not viable with the tech of that time). Secondly if anything he was a villain, to a point even the Spanish Inquisition called him out for his bad behavior against native Americans... So I agree, no reason to give him any more attention then any of the many other half assed villains which lucked out in human history.

krzyk 2y ago
He is important because he changed the power dynamics of the old world. And as a result created probably the most powerful country in the world. I'm not American, and not from colonial power country, but it was significant.
javajosh 2y ago
I suspect that a lot of the recent dirt about Columbus comes from documents involving his (and his decedents) court case to assert ownership of the New World. In particular, I suspect that the most damning accusations come from briefs filed by opposing counsel: "In 1500, during his third voyage to the Americas, Columbus was arrested and dismissed from his posts. He and his sons, Diego and Fernando, then conducted a lengthy series of court cases against the Castilian crown, known as the pleitos colombinos, alleging that the Crown had illegally reneged on its contractual obligations to Columbus and his heirs.[93] The Columbus family had some success in their first litigation, as a judgment of 1511 confirmed Diego's position as viceroy but reduced his powers. Diego resumed litigation in 1512, which lasted until 1536, and further disputes initiated by heirs continued until 1790." -https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Columbus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Columbus 280 years of legal battle is going to be a treasure trove of dirt, if you want to find it. As for "why now" and "why does it matter what his heritage is" I think it has everything to do with the cultural milieu. Modern white liberals hate their heritage which they characterize as ancestors of colonizers, slave owners, and exploiters. If Columbus was Jewish this gives left-wing anti-Semites extra ammunition against Jews. It aligns the deep hatred for colonizers with deep hatred for Israel for its actions in it's war with Hamas.
- lazyeye 2y ago
  Yes its interesting reading all the people in this thread trying to align historical facts with contemporary ideological requirements...
  - javajosh 2y ago
    But it is always legitimate to wonder about where the culture's attention is cast, and why. The present always holds great sway on how we perceive the past. Consider the example of Karl Marx, who's ideology fed his historical narrative, and vice-versa. I don't think it's coincidence that we never heard of Columbus' villainy prior to ~2005 and we never heard of his Jewishness until 2024.
    - lazyeye 2y ago
      Well everybody in all of history is a villain by contemporary standards. For example people are now considered villains for thinking biological men shouldnt be allowed in women's change rooms. Historians like to say the past is a different country. Judging historical events by todays standards makes about as much sense to me as discovering life on Mars and judging their behaviour by our own standards. For me, its just a way of signalling virtue that assigns zero cost on the signaller. It's historical so you dont have to do anything (it doesnt cost you time or money) and the people being judged arent here to defend themselves or provide any nuance. Its lazy and cheap.
    - cafard 2y ago
      If you look at Samuel Eliot Morison's writings about Columbus, you will see that a lot of people made a lot of claims about Columbus's origins. You will also find that a lot of people had their reservations about his treatment of the people he found.
kevin_thibedeau 2y ago
The lionization of Columbus was started by late 19th century Italian immigrants who wanted something to demonstrate their worth to an America that looked down on them. It is somewhat relevant if he wasn't actually Italian.
- sameoldtune 2y ago
  It hardly matters anymore. Probably at least half of all Americans live in a state or city that celebrates Indigenous Peoples Day instead of Columbus Day. Italians have secured their place in society.
JeremyNT 2y ago
> So I agree, no reason to give him any more attention then any of the many other half assed villains which lucked out in human history. I mean that version of the story is pretty interesting too, right? One can see a lot of parallels between startup culture, really. You start off with a dumb idea, you pitch it over and over for years till you find a sucker, you get funding because of nepotism / connections, your dumb idea fails but you stumble across something that works on the way, then you move fast and break things (like... the entire indigenous population).
pif 2y ago
> it rough size was also known And it had been known for 1600 years already! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eratosthenes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eratosthenes

krzyk 2y ago

He is important because he changed the power dynamics of the old world. And as a result created probably the most powerful country in the world. I'm not American, and not from colonial power country, but it was significant.

javajosh 2y ago

I suspect that a lot of the recent dirt about Columbus comes from documents involving his (and his decedents) court case to assert ownership of the New World. In particular, I suspect that the most damning accusations come from briefs filed by opposing counsel: "In 1500, during his third voyage to the Americas, Columbus was arrested and dismissed from his posts. He and his sons, Diego and Fernando, then conducted a lengthy series of court cases against the Castilian crown, known as the pleitos colombinos, alleging that the Crown had illegally reneged on its contractual obligations to Columbus and his heirs.[93] The Columbus family had some success in their first litigation, as a judgment of 1511 confirmed Diego's position as viceroy but reduced his powers. Diego resumed litigation in 1512, which lasted until 1536, and further disputes initiated by heirs continued until 1790." -https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Columbus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Columbus 280 years of legal battle is going to be a treasure trove of dirt, if you want to find it. As for "why now" and "why does it matter what his heritage is" I think it has everything to do with the cultural milieu. Modern white liberals hate their heritage which they characterize as ancestors of colonizers, slave owners, and exploiters. If Columbus was Jewish this gives left-wing anti-Semites extra ammunition against Jews. It aligns the deep hatred for colonizers with deep hatred for Israel for its actions in it's war with Hamas.

lazyeye 2y ago
Yes its interesting reading all the people in this thread trying to align historical facts with contemporary ideological requirements...
- javajosh 2y ago
  But it is always legitimate to wonder about where the culture's attention is cast, and why. The present always holds great sway on how we perceive the past. Consider the example of Karl Marx, who's ideology fed his historical narrative, and vice-versa. I don't think it's coincidence that we never heard of Columbus' villainy prior to ~2005 and we never heard of his Jewishness until 2024.
  - lazyeye 2y ago
    Well everybody in all of history is a villain by contemporary standards. For example people are now considered villains for thinking biological men shouldnt be allowed in women's change rooms. Historians like to say the past is a different country. Judging historical events by todays standards makes about as much sense to me as discovering life on Mars and judging their behaviour by our own standards. For me, its just a way of signalling virtue that assigns zero cost on the signaller. It's historical so you dont have to do anything (it doesnt cost you time or money) and the people being judged arent here to defend themselves or provide any nuance. Its lazy and cheap.
  - cafard 2y ago
    If you look at Samuel Eliot Morison's writings about Columbus, you will see that a lot of people made a lot of claims about Columbus's origins. You will also find that a lot of people had their reservations about his treatment of the people he found.

kevin_thibedeau 2y ago

The lionization of Columbus was started by late 19th century Italian immigrants who wanted something to demonstrate their worth to an America that looked down on them. It is somewhat relevant if he wasn't actually Italian.

sameoldtune 2y ago
It hardly matters anymore. Probably at least half of all Americans live in a state or city that celebrates Indigenous Peoples Day instead of Columbus Day. Italians have secured their place in society.

JeremyNT 2y ago

> So I agree, no reason to give him any more attention then any of the many other half assed villains which lucked out in human history. I mean that version of the story is pretty interesting too, right? One can see a lot of parallels between startup culture, really. You start off with a dumb idea, you pitch it over and over for years till you find a sucker, you get funding because of nepotism / connections, your dumb idea fails but you stumble across something that works on the way, then you move fast and break things (like... the entire indigenous population).

pif 2y ago

> it rough size was also known And it had been known for 1600 years already! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eratosthenes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eratosthenes