3 ms·

Is it really true though? I don't have much knowledge about embedded development, but as far as I know, Java has been used in many embedded systems, and was run

Is it really true though? I don't have much knowledge about embedded development, but as far as I know, Java has been used in many embedded systems, and was running on phones' SIM-cards. Please correct me if I am wrong. I think that most modern embedded systems are nowadays more powerful than my first desktop computer — is it really still worth for the majority of embedded projects to count every byte at the expense of developers' productivity (and overall project success, as a result)?

leoedin 2y ago
SIM cards are a weird exception because they have a hardware computer designed to run a subset of Java. Normally Java compiles to a bytecode which is run by the Java VM - in SIM cards the VM is a hardware implementation of the Java VM. That's super uncommon - most processors in the world have a different instruction set, like ARM or RISC or x86. Java can't compile to instructions in those languages. Rust can. Yes, you can run a VM on one of those processors in which you run a language like C# or Java. Look at MicroPython as a successful example. But the code which runs that VM has to be written in something. Typically that has been C and C++ - but Rust can also do it. You're right though - a lot of what we call "embedded computing" could be done using a modern VM interpreted language. There are some languages out there - MicroPython and Squirrel come to mind - which can run on the memory and storage constrained environment of a microcontroller. The mainstream implementations of Java and C# use way to much memory - they've been optimised for desktop environments. Microcontrollers often have 64 - 1024 kB of RAM. You could ship products with application processors like the Raspberry Pi, running an OS, and write your application in whatever language you like. But that costs 1-2 orders of magnitude more money. A cheap microcontroller is $1. By the time you've added the RAM, flash and supporting power rails, a cheap application processor is $10+. Then you have to maintain an OS - that's a lot of engineering time. Sometimes it's worth it, sometimes it's not - the tradeoff depends on the product.
psychoslave 2y ago
Not sure how well it fits reality, but it’s also to a large extend how dramatic can be the result of a fault of your system. If it’s embedded in a coffee machine, maybe all cost-effective taken into account it’s ok to have an over-bloated software stack maintained by the cheapest folk the manager could found. Now if you are working on embedded software for some vehicle like a critical part of a car, a train or a spaceship, considerations of safety for both ethic and legal reasons might lead to different tradeoffs and conclusions.

leoedin 2y ago

SIM cards are a weird exception because they have a hardware computer designed to run a subset of Java. Normally Java compiles to a bytecode which is run by the Java VM - in SIM cards the VM is a hardware implementation of the Java VM. That's super uncommon - most processors in the world have a different instruction set, like ARM or RISC or x86. Java can't compile to instructions in those languages. Rust can. Yes, you can run a VM on one of those processors in which you run a language like C# or Java. Look at MicroPython as a successful example. But the code which runs that VM has to be written in something. Typically that has been C and C++ - but Rust can also do it. You're right though - a lot of what we call "embedded computing" could be done using a modern VM interpreted language. There are some languages out there - MicroPython and Squirrel come to mind - which can run on the memory and storage constrained environment of a microcontroller. The mainstream implementations of Java and C# use way to much memory - they've been optimised for desktop environments. Microcontrollers often have 64 - 1024 kB of RAM. You could ship products with application processors like the Raspberry Pi, running an OS, and write your application in whatever language you like. But that costs 1-2 orders of magnitude more money. A cheap microcontroller is $1. By the time you've added the RAM, flash and supporting power rails, a cheap application processor is $10+. Then you have to maintain an OS - that's a lot of engineering time. Sometimes it's worth it, sometimes it's not - the tradeoff depends on the product.

psychoslave 2y ago

Not sure how well it fits reality, but it’s also to a large extend how dramatic can be the result of a fault of your system. If it’s embedded in a coffee machine, maybe all cost-effective taken into account it’s ok to have an over-bloated software stack maintained by the cheapest folk the manager could found. Now if you are working on embedded software for some vehicle like a critical part of a car, a train or a spaceship, considerations of safety for both ethic and legal reasons might lead to different tradeoffs and conclusions.