3 ms·

I'm calling marketing fluff here, given that its founder seems to hold a skewed model of kagis power in regard to collecting personal information altogether: "p

I'm calling marketing fluff here, given that its founder seems to hold a skewed model of kagis power in regard to collecting personal information altogether: "personal information is what you can be identified with as an individual. no information you submit to kagi is personal information except if you use your real email address to register"[0] [0]: https://d-shoot.net/img/kagi/weregood3.png https://d-shoot.net/img/kagi/weregood3.png

JumpCrisscross 2y ago
The image looks like it's from this post [1]. Long story short, this appears to be a case of a CEO needing to restrain themselves from saying (or typing) everything that comes to mind when faced with a combative user who clearly isn't trying to understand something or bring anything to the table. At the end of the day, what you care about when it comes to privacy in search are your search records. They say--in a way that generates liablity--that they don't store them. I see no reason for them to break that promise. Between a commercial VPN and Kagi, I trust Kagi more. [1] https://d-shoot.net/kagi.html https://d-shoot.net/kagi.html
- whilenot-dev 2y ago
  A user asking for the state of GDPR conformance is not by any means a "combative" user. They just want to know if their personal information a treated in their best interest and according to current laws. Privacy is a VPNs first business, for kagi that would be search. It feels like you mix your evangelism with a bit of whataboutism here... why do you bring up VPN providers when we talk about the privacy guarantees of kagi?
- politelemon 2y ago
  Tangent to that, I hadn't realised their Orion browser was mac only, which is a flag of some colour to me. A company that takes privacy seriously ought to be taking Linux or cross platform seriously and if they do not I assume they do not.
  - freediver 2y ago
    Offering another perspective: A company that takes privacy seriously creates their web browser as a zero telemetry and with 'pay for your browser' business model so there is no incentive whatsoever to mine user data (Orion is both of these, and unique in the browser world as such). And a company that is 100% supported by user funding (which Kagi is) can only do so much with resources available, which is the reason we have to pick our battles (read more about Windows/Linux/Android versions for Orion https://orionfeedback.org/d/2321-orion-for-windows-android-linux https://orionfeedback.org/d/2321-orion-for-windows-android-l... ) People often criticize us for doing too much (eg link in the parent of parent comment) but we also at the same time do get critique that we are doing too little :) If Kagi is not doing something, believe me, it is not for the lack of will or ambition. (Kagi CEO here)
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > company that takes privacy seriously ought to be taking Linux or cross platform seriously Going out on a limb, but guessing that the chief hurdle a company like Kagi faces is willingness to pay. I'm going to guess the 'this is a great product, but I just can't bring myself to pay more than 20¢ per year for search' crowd is crowded in Linux. (I may be totally wrong on this!)
- eviks 2y ago
  It might appear like that from a corporate PR perspective, but from the perspective of a user that's just one of those rare cases where you get a glimpse of honesty, which is just (if not more) as valid as some undefined liability to be the ground for you assessment
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > from the perspective of a user that's just one of those rare cases where you get a glimpse of honesty User asked for data download. Company said there isn't any. User said that isn't GDPR compliant, which is nonsense. Company gave correct, snotty response. I get it. I've been pissed off at companies before, too, and basically engaged in a support conversation to get something ambiguous in writing that I could use to cost them time and money in New York, California, Texas or the EU. (Big regulatory organiations, some of which love fodder with which to justify their existence.) User was going down a rabbit hole. Kagi followed them there. They shouldn't have responded to that thread after it went into territory that on HN would have been flagged and in real life been settled with a glare.
- timeon 2y ago
  > faced with a combative user the user from your line: "I really want to stress that I don't have anything against you or kagi :) just trying to be constructive." Is combative that he was explaining what GDPR was while while other side was insisting on confidentially incorrect view?
surgical_fire 2y ago
I... Actually think that is an extremely poor answer from Kagi's founder, one that would give me pause before trusting them with personal data. The most charitable reading there is that they clearly don't understand what PII even is, why it is important, and therefore that they would handle it properly.

JumpCrisscross 2y ago

The image looks like it's from this post [1]. Long story short, this appears to be a case of a CEO needing to restrain themselves from saying (or typing) everything that comes to mind when faced with a combative user who clearly isn't trying to understand something or bring anything to the table. At the end of the day, what you care about when it comes to privacy in search are your search records. They say--in a way that generates liablity--that they don't store them. I see no reason for them to break that promise. Between a commercial VPN and Kagi, I trust Kagi more. [1] https://d-shoot.net/kagi.html https://d-shoot.net/kagi.html

whilenot-dev 2y ago
A user asking for the state of GDPR conformance is not by any means a "combative" user. They just want to know if their personal information a treated in their best interest and according to current laws. Privacy is a VPNs first business, for kagi that would be search. It feels like you mix your evangelism with a bit of whataboutism here... why do you bring up VPN providers when we talk about the privacy guarantees of kagi?
politelemon 2y ago
Tangent to that, I hadn't realised their Orion browser was mac only, which is a flag of some colour to me. A company that takes privacy seriously ought to be taking Linux or cross platform seriously and if they do not I assume they do not.
- freediver 2y ago
  Offering another perspective: A company that takes privacy seriously creates their web browser as a zero telemetry and with 'pay for your browser' business model so there is no incentive whatsoever to mine user data (Orion is both of these, and unique in the browser world as such). And a company that is 100% supported by user funding (which Kagi is) can only do so much with resources available, which is the reason we have to pick our battles (read more about Windows/Linux/Android versions for Orion https://orionfeedback.org/d/2321-orion-for-windows-android-linux https://orionfeedback.org/d/2321-orion-for-windows-android-l... ) People often criticize us for doing too much (eg link in the parent of parent comment) but we also at the same time do get critique that we are doing too little :) If Kagi is not doing something, believe me, it is not for the lack of will or ambition. (Kagi CEO here)
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > company that takes privacy seriously ought to be taking Linux or cross platform seriously Going out on a limb, but guessing that the chief hurdle a company like Kagi faces is willingness to pay. I'm going to guess the 'this is a great product, but I just can't bring myself to pay more than 20¢ per year for search' crowd is crowded in Linux. (I may be totally wrong on this!)
eviks 2y ago
It might appear like that from a corporate PR perspective, but from the perspective of a user that's just one of those rare cases where you get a glimpse of honesty, which is just (if not more) as valid as some undefined liability to be the ground for you assessment
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > from the perspective of a user that's just one of those rare cases where you get a glimpse of honesty User asked for data download. Company said there isn't any. User said that isn't GDPR compliant, which is nonsense. Company gave correct, snotty response. I get it. I've been pissed off at companies before, too, and basically engaged in a support conversation to get something ambiguous in writing that I could use to cost them time and money in New York, California, Texas or the EU. (Big regulatory organiations, some of which love fodder with which to justify their existence.) User was going down a rabbit hole. Kagi followed them there. They shouldn't have responded to that thread after it went into territory that on HN would have been flagged and in real life been settled with a glare.
timeon 2y ago
> faced with a combative user the user from your line: "I really want to stress that I don't have anything against you or kagi :) just trying to be constructive." Is combative that he was explaining what GDPR was while while other side was insisting on confidentially incorrect view?

surgical_fire 2y ago

I... Actually think that is an extremely poor answer from Kagi's founder, one that would give me pause before trusting them with personal data. The most charitable reading there is that they clearly don't understand what PII even is, why it is important, and therefore that they would handle it properly.