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One interesting thing I’ve never seen discussed is how puberty shifting earlier in modern times clashes with human sexual instincts and related cultural norms.

One interesting thing I’ve never seen discussed is how puberty shifting earlier in modern times clashes with human sexual instincts and related cultural norms. Absent abuse situations, pre-pubescent humans have basically no interest in sexual behavior, and, except in very rare cases of truly deranged individuals, adults have basically no sexual interest in pre-pubescent minors. Historically, I believe puberty roughly coincided with the age of marriage for girls. One can argue about the mental maturity of a 17 year old and whether they are ready to make important life decisions, but there is clearly a huge mental difference between a 17 year old and a 13 year old, and puberty shifting earlier did not come with a forward shift in mental development. So now we have essentially mental children who are interested in sex and related behavior (e.g. suggestive dancing), in a way that I believe is probably unprecedented in all of human history. Also, while it is gross to consider, I’m guessing that many viewers of these 15 year olds are actually adult men of all ages. This problem is significantly amplified by a shift to earlier puberty, since I’m guessing in a counterfactual where the dancing girls are pre-pubescent, these men would feel disgust and move on instead of guiltily lingering.

onetokeoverthe 2y ago
Modern early puberty is a total fallacy. Basic research shows the age as being 10-17 depending on nutrition and the environment. For thousands of years. Article: Children are entering puberty younger than before, according to recent studies, raising concerns that childhood obesity and hormone-contaminated water supplies may be to blame. However, our archaeological research suggests that there’s nothing to worry about. Children in medieval England entered puberty between 10 and 12 years of age – the same as today. In England, just before the industrial revolution, historical sources suggest menarche occurred between 12-14 years. By the 1840s, girls had their first period between 14-17 years. Author: Mary Lewis Associate Professor in Bioarcheology, University of Reading And that's not to negate Tiktok/Bytedance's negatives.
- pfannkuchen 2y ago
  Head: meet sand So what if it’s caused by changes in nutrition? That has no impact on the practical effects of the change. Average height has increased significantly due to nutrition. Would you say that modern height increases are a total fallacy? I’m not making any claims about chemicals or whatever people on the internet often ramble about.
- tivert 2y ago
  >> Historically, I believe puberty roughly coincided with the age of marriage for girls. > In England, just before the industrial revolution, historical sources suggest menarche occurred between 12-14 years. By the 1840s, girls had their first period between 14-17 years. And just to point out another factual error in the OP's post, those women were also getting married in their mid-to-late 20s back then: https://www.campop.geog.cam.ac.uk/blog/2024/07/11/what-age-did-people-marry/ https://www.campop.geog.cam.ac.uk/blog/2024/07/11/what-age-d...: > In fact, the majority of women and men married considerably older than [their teens] in the past. The graph below shows the average age at marriage over the long sweep of English and Welsh history. Apart from a few decades in the early 1800s, the only time since 1550 that the average age of first marriage for women fell below age 24 was during the baby boom of the 1950s and 1960s.
  - recursivecaveat 2y ago
    Thanks for posting that. I always thought Europeans before widespread secondary education usually got married in their late teens or so. Its good to have my misconception corrected.
  - moi2388 2y ago
    Well, that’s interesting. I really had no idea. Perhaps Romeo and Juliet had a bit too much influence on my historical perspective :,)
    - tivert 2y ago
      > Perhaps Romeo and Juliet had a bit too much influence on my historical perspective :,) And royalty/nobility. It mentions that marriage ages for them were younger. Which makes sense, because my understanding is those weddings were political and royalty would obviously not suffer the same economic pressures as the lower classes.
kristopolous 2y ago
The argument is one of agency. A teenager can't be trusted with the agency to consent to that kind of content production regardless of any physical attribute in the same way we don't give drivers licenses to 13 year olds if they happen to be of adult height. The real problem we have to deal with is every smartphone, tablet and laptop is potentially a porn production device and we're not going to restrict their use to 18+ because they're so generally useful. I think the real solution is some kind of AI to block the content from being recorded unless the bill payer unlocks it on the idea that 15 year olds usually aren't paying their own cell phone bill.

onetokeoverthe 2y ago

Modern early puberty is a total fallacy. Basic research shows the age as being 10-17 depending on nutrition and the environment. For thousands of years. Article: Children are entering puberty younger than before, according to recent studies, raising concerns that childhood obesity and hormone-contaminated water supplies may be to blame. However, our archaeological research suggests that there’s nothing to worry about. Children in medieval England entered puberty between 10 and 12 years of age – the same as today. In England, just before the industrial revolution, historical sources suggest menarche occurred between 12-14 years. By the 1840s, girls had their first period between 14-17 years. Author: Mary Lewis Associate Professor in Bioarcheology, University of Reading And that's not to negate Tiktok/Bytedance's negatives.

pfannkuchen 2y ago
Head: meet sand So what if it’s caused by changes in nutrition? That has no impact on the practical effects of the change. Average height has increased significantly due to nutrition. Would you say that modern height increases are a total fallacy? I’m not making any claims about chemicals or whatever people on the internet often ramble about.
tivert 2y ago
>> Historically, I believe puberty roughly coincided with the age of marriage for girls. > In England, just before the industrial revolution, historical sources suggest menarche occurred between 12-14 years. By the 1840s, girls had their first period between 14-17 years. And just to point out another factual error in the OP's post, those women were also getting married in their mid-to-late 20s back then: https://www.campop.geog.cam.ac.uk/blog/2024/07/11/what-age-did-people-marry/ https://www.campop.geog.cam.ac.uk/blog/2024/07/11/what-age-d...: > In fact, the majority of women and men married considerably older than [their teens] in the past. The graph below shows the average age at marriage over the long sweep of English and Welsh history. Apart from a few decades in the early 1800s, the only time since 1550 that the average age of first marriage for women fell below age 24 was during the baby boom of the 1950s and 1960s.
- recursivecaveat 2y ago
  Thanks for posting that. I always thought Europeans before widespread secondary education usually got married in their late teens or so. Its good to have my misconception corrected.
- moi2388 2y ago
  Well, that’s interesting. I really had no idea. Perhaps Romeo and Juliet had a bit too much influence on my historical perspective :,)
  - tivert 2y ago
    > Perhaps Romeo and Juliet had a bit too much influence on my historical perspective :,) And royalty/nobility. It mentions that marriage ages for them were younger. Which makes sense, because my understanding is those weddings were political and royalty would obviously not suffer the same economic pressures as the lower classes.

kristopolous 2y ago

The argument is one of agency. A teenager can't be trusted with the agency to consent to that kind of content production regardless of any physical attribute in the same way we don't give drivers licenses to 13 year olds if they happen to be of adult height. The real problem we have to deal with is every smartphone, tablet and laptop is potentially a porn production device and we're not going to restrict their use to 18+ because they're so generally useful. I think the real solution is some kind of AI to block the content from being recorded unless the bill payer unlocks it on the idea that 15 year olds usually aren't paying their own cell phone bill.