4 ms·

This general topic about trade workers pops up on HN periodically and there is always some discussion about high-earning people working in the trades. But I can

This general topic about trade workers pops up on HN periodically and there is always some discussion about high-earning people working in the trades. But I can't find any data that actually supports this statement - the BLS numbers tell a story that plumbers and electricians make almost exactly the median income that full-time, year-round workers in the US earn. I don't doubt that someone who is running a business is earning more, this article in the WSJ says: "At the time that they sold the company, it had 18 employees and was bringing in about $3 million in revenue a year. " This was a plumbing business with two founders, founded in 2012. The article goes on to say that PE buys smaller businesses like the one above for: "smaller outfits (such as Rice’s), which Redwood says it buys outright for an average of $1 million..." The Occupational Outlook handbook says: "The median annual wage for electricians was $61,590 in May 2023. The median wage is the wage at which half the workers in an occupation earned more than that amount and half earned less. The lowest 10 percent earned less than $38,470, and the highest 10 percent earned more than $104,180." The mean annual wage for all occupations in that resource is $65,470.

mistrial9 2y ago
in the construction I saw, there were several big groups of electricians.. a) ratty, self-employed often with serious baggage or obvious deficits.. can be paid well or very badly.. insurance is a problem; b) big company that hires and fires frequently.. wears a uniform, clean tools and trucks.. do not expect anything different than the work order, and sometimes a pawn in some kind of low-ethics moves between developers and service company; c) career, union electricians.. involved in very large, slow moving, multi-part works.. by the book, can do industrial installation in large teams; all manner of insurance, and also health care and retirement benefits. Modern times? probably add non-English speaking versions of (a) and (b). The pay varies quite a lot between those situations.
- dgacmu 2y ago
  Or the guy I use for stuff at my house when it exceeds my comfort level (i.e., live work on 240v in the panel, things requiring a big masonry drill and conduit, etc.): he's an in-house union electrician at a university by day and moonlights doing private jobs after hours. It's really a fantastic deal. He does exquisitely good work at a reasonable price. Not the cheapest electrician, but the price/quality is great.
throw234234234 2y ago
There's a number of reasons for that; although I'm not based in the US so it vary. The business/self employed earn significantly more than someone working under someone else where I live. There are also a number of benefits particularly tax wise which means you normally need to discount a white-collar wage significantly to compare blue-collar wages like for like (somewhat like 30-40% at least). Official statistics you quote are usually employment and/or tax statistics - none which are reflective of the actual money available to spend for the trade worker. Talking to them the common threads are: - Cash based jobs. e.g. I charge my materials to the business (tax expense) and give the customer a small discount (say 10%) if they pay in cash. Assuming a 30% tax rate it means I can make for tax purposes my income less and my expenses more. In the end however I'm significantly ahead - any savings I've given to the customer are more than offset by tax savings. - Income splitting: Wife "does the books" after hours, I split the income two ways. This way I don't pay as much tax in a regressive tax system as I can push myself to a lower tax band. If you want a single income family, better to own a trade business than be a professional. NOTE: Some countries/places support this more than others, if a country has good income splitting laws this diminishes this advantage. - Favors: A lot of money is earned by mutual favors rather than monetary transfers especially in renovations/etc. e.g. I will do the plumbing for your house, and mine, you can do the concrete slab for both houses and we will call it square. Trades people typically know other trades people and a lot of the property can be built that way. No money exchanged, no tax paid. But the capital gains from renovations can be substantial - and tax of them can be deferred till sale. I've seen people earn millions this way, completely dwarfing their business income. Capital gains in most countries is also taxed at a lower rate and there's a lot of exemptions (i.e. if you live in it, etc). The benefits of this over many renovations can add to millions in extra wealth, none of it reported as income and under taxed. - Asset Depreciation/Write Off: Want that big pick up truck? But want to pay the same after tax price as a small hatch? Claim it on your business, write it off, and expense it. May not apply as strongly in the US, but I've seen workers with very expensive cars here for the same after tax price as I could buy a simple sedan for. This applies to other things like tools for the house, etc. All of the above reduces the official statistics substantially as under reporting, and makes blue collar a lot more appealing than it may seem on the surface. I would argue a self employed blue collar worker on say $120k would be as good as a white collar worker on $200k where I live, maybe even more. If you have a family and are a single income earner in some countries it makes sense to jump straight into blue collar.
MisterBastahrd 2y ago
I come from a small town that is dominated by chemical refineries. I know people who are electricians, HVAC repairmen, plumbers, pipefitters, and process operators. You know what scares them more than anything else in the world? A corporate policy against overtime. Many of them will pick up any extra shift they can get. They LIVE for plant turnarounds where they're basically paid 24/7 for a couple of months to essentially eat, breathe, and sleep at the plant to be on call because it's how they go financially from a lower middle class lifestyle to being solidly middle class. This is what pays their mortgages, their hunting leases, their bass boats, and the limited edition F-150 to do all that stuff with.
chadcmulligan 2y ago
My nephew is a fifo sparky for some mines, his base is 200K AUD, I don't know how much he makes in allowances on top. He's on call 24 hours though and just has to fly somewhere at a moments notice.
- allenrb 2y ago
  What does “fifo” mean in this context? I’m thinking it is not “first in, first out”?
  - tobtoh 2y ago
    Fly In Fly Out. Typically, the workers fly out from a capital city to work/live at a remote mine site for several weeks, then they fly back for a couple of weeks rest, repeat.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - diffrabox 2y ago
    Fly in fly out. It's common in Australia for mining and oil & gas workers to live in a capital city but fly into the work site. Their roster might be a week on followed by a week off or similar.
- kristianp 2y ago
  What would he make if he were working in the local city instead? Fifo truck drivers can almost make that.
  - chadcmulligan 2y ago
    60-80K I'd guess is about usual for an electrician I think, maybe 100K
- wodenokoto 2y ago
  That doesn’t exactly sound like your average electrician job. What is your point?
metaphor 2y ago
> the BLS numbers tell a story that plumbers and electricians make almost exactly the median income that full-time, year-round workers in the US earn. Looking at BLS wage statistics for tradesmen really won't tell you anything about the financial well-being of private small business entrepreneurs; you need to be looking at their company's financial statements---which is quite privileged data---for a meaningful idea.
Yeul 2y ago
It's not just about the money. Most people want a lazy bullshit office job rather than hard physical labour. Climbing ladders isn't a lot of fun when you reach 40.
mtnGoat 2y ago
It’s very regional, for instance in Quincy Washington they are actively constructing well over a million square feet of data centers. Each one has hundreds of electricians working in it. My personal friend is clearing $350k before union benefits the last three years as an electrical foreman. They work 6 days a week 3 weeks a month and work 10 hour days in a really small town. Union work, prevailing wage, over time and completion bonuses increase the pay in these jobs to be triple what a local electrician would make doing house calls. Of the 500 heads my friend oversees, most are not even from this state. But… once those data centers are done being built the economy will crash for many local business rely on those high paying jobs. Restaurants, hotels, etc are hit hardest. And a lot of the workers will to another “hot” region, or go back to where they came from and earn half. I know a few that “retired” by 40, making $300k living in a trailer on site, in a town with nothing to do after 8, gives you a lot of chance to save money.
bigfatkitten 2y ago
> This general topic about trade workers pops up on HN periodically and there is always some discussion about high-earning people working in the trades. But I can't find any data that actually supports this statement - the BLS numbers tell a story that plumbers and electricians make almost exactly the median income that full-time, year-round workers in the US earn. That's because high earning tradespeople are typically not wage earners. They operate their own companies.

mistrial9 2y ago

in the construction I saw, there were several big groups of electricians.. a) ratty, self-employed often with serious baggage or obvious deficits.. can be paid well or very badly.. insurance is a problem; b) big company that hires and fires frequently.. wears a uniform, clean tools and trucks.. do not expect anything different than the work order, and sometimes a pawn in some kind of low-ethics moves between developers and service company; c) career, union electricians.. involved in very large, slow moving, multi-part works.. by the book, can do industrial installation in large teams; all manner of insurance, and also health care and retirement benefits. Modern times? probably add non-English speaking versions of (a) and (b). The pay varies quite a lot between those situations.

dgacmu 2y ago
Or the guy I use for stuff at my house when it exceeds my comfort level (i.e., live work on 240v in the panel, things requiring a big masonry drill and conduit, etc.): he's an in-house union electrician at a university by day and moonlights doing private jobs after hours. It's really a fantastic deal. He does exquisitely good work at a reasonable price. Not the cheapest electrician, but the price/quality is great.

throw234234234 2y ago

There's a number of reasons for that; although I'm not based in the US so it vary. The business/self employed earn significantly more than someone working under someone else where I live. There are also a number of benefits particularly tax wise which means you normally need to discount a white-collar wage significantly to compare blue-collar wages like for like (somewhat like 30-40% at least). Official statistics you quote are usually employment and/or tax statistics - none which are reflective of the actual money available to spend for the trade worker. Talking to them the common threads are: - Cash based jobs. e.g. I charge my materials to the business (tax expense) and give the customer a small discount (say 10%) if they pay in cash. Assuming a 30% tax rate it means I can make for tax purposes my income less and my expenses more. In the end however I'm significantly ahead - any savings I've given to the customer are more than offset by tax savings. - Income splitting: Wife "does the books" after hours, I split the income two ways. This way I don't pay as much tax in a regressive tax system as I can push myself to a lower tax band. If you want a single income family, better to own a trade business than be a professional. NOTE: Some countries/places support this more than others, if a country has good income splitting laws this diminishes this advantage. - Favors: A lot of money is earned by mutual favors rather than monetary transfers especially in renovations/etc. e.g. I will do the plumbing for your house, and mine, you can do the concrete slab for both houses and we will call it square. Trades people typically know other trades people and a lot of the property can be built that way. No money exchanged, no tax paid. But the capital gains from renovations can be substantial - and tax of them can be deferred till sale. I've seen people earn millions this way, completely dwarfing their business income. Capital gains in most countries is also taxed at a lower rate and there's a lot of exemptions (i.e. if you live in it, etc). The benefits of this over many renovations can add to millions in extra wealth, none of it reported as income and under taxed. - Asset Depreciation/Write Off: Want that big pick up truck? But want to pay the same after tax price as a small hatch? Claim it on your business, write it off, and expense it. May not apply as strongly in the US, but I've seen workers with very expensive cars here for the same after tax price as I could buy a simple sedan for. This applies to other things like tools for the house, etc. All of the above reduces the official statistics substantially as under reporting, and makes blue collar a lot more appealing than it may seem on the surface. I would argue a self employed blue collar worker on say $120k would be as good as a white collar worker on $200k where I live, maybe even more. If you have a family and are a single income earner in some countries it makes sense to jump straight into blue collar.

MisterBastahrd 2y ago

I come from a small town that is dominated by chemical refineries. I know people who are electricians, HVAC repairmen, plumbers, pipefitters, and process operators. You know what scares them more than anything else in the world? A corporate policy against overtime. Many of them will pick up any extra shift they can get. They LIVE for plant turnarounds where they're basically paid 24/7 for a couple of months to essentially eat, breathe, and sleep at the plant to be on call because it's how they go financially from a lower middle class lifestyle to being solidly middle class. This is what pays their mortgages, their hunting leases, their bass boats, and the limited edition F-150 to do all that stuff with.

chadcmulligan 2y ago

My nephew is a fifo sparky for some mines, his base is 200K AUD, I don't know how much he makes in allowances on top. He's on call 24 hours though and just has to fly somewhere at a moments notice.

allenrb 2y ago
What does “fifo” mean in this context? I’m thinking it is not “first in, first out”?
- tobtoh 2y ago
  Fly In Fly Out. Typically, the workers fly out from a capital city to work/live at a remote mine site for several weeks, then they fly back for a couple of weeks rest, repeat.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- diffrabox 2y ago
  Fly in fly out. It's common in Australia for mining and oil & gas workers to live in a capital city but fly into the work site. Their roster might be a week on followed by a week off or similar.
kristianp 2y ago
What would he make if he were working in the local city instead? Fifo truck drivers can almost make that.
- chadcmulligan 2y ago
  60-80K I'd guess is about usual for an electrician I think, maybe 100K
wodenokoto 2y ago
That doesn’t exactly sound like your average electrician job. What is your point?

metaphor 2y ago

> the BLS numbers tell a story that plumbers and electricians make almost exactly the median income that full-time, year-round workers in the US earn. Looking at BLS wage statistics for tradesmen really won't tell you anything about the financial well-being of private small business entrepreneurs; you need to be looking at their company's financial statements---which is quite privileged data---for a meaningful idea.

Yeul 2y ago

It's not just about the money. Most people want a lazy bullshit office job rather than hard physical labour. Climbing ladders isn't a lot of fun when you reach 40.

mtnGoat 2y ago

It’s very regional, for instance in Quincy Washington they are actively constructing well over a million square feet of data centers. Each one has hundreds of electricians working in it. My personal friend is clearing $350k before union benefits the last three years as an electrical foreman. They work 6 days a week 3 weeks a month and work 10 hour days in a really small town. Union work, prevailing wage, over time and completion bonuses increase the pay in these jobs to be triple what a local electrician would make doing house calls. Of the 500 heads my friend oversees, most are not even from this state. But… once those data centers are done being built the economy will crash for many local business rely on those high paying jobs. Restaurants, hotels, etc are hit hardest. And a lot of the workers will to another “hot” region, or go back to where they came from and earn half. I know a few that “retired” by 40, making $300k living in a trailer on site, in a town with nothing to do after 8, gives you a lot of chance to save money.

bigfatkitten 2y ago

> This general topic about trade workers pops up on HN periodically and there is always some discussion about high-earning people working in the trades. But I can't find any data that actually supports this statement - the BLS numbers tell a story that plumbers and electricians make almost exactly the median income that full-time, year-round workers in the US earn. That's because high earning tradespeople are typically not wage earners. They operate their own companies.