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It is true that trades work has picked up quite a bit. High school kids and their career counselors say the reasons are: - Well-defined career path. - High pa

It is true that trades work has picked up quite a bit. High school kids and their career counselors say the reasons are: - Well-defined career path. - High pay as you keep going ahead. - Union pay and benefits. Incredible stability. Incredible healthcare. - No outsourcing. - Lots of paid leave. None of that unlimited PTO scam. - Lot of camaraderie. None of the corporate nonsense where execs take it all at the expense of people. - Opportunity to start your own business at a certain point. - No large student loan to get started. While not all kids articulate all these points well, but they can tell how their seniors in college are grinding too much for little return - while trades people are working hard, taking vacations, raising families - and buying homes. The average tradesperson in a HCOL is a millionaire by age 40 simply because they could buy a house earlier in their lives. And they are able to start families and live a very stable life. Kids are picking up on this.

linotype 2y ago
You failed to mention any of the downsides: - competition from non-Union labor - broken body by 50 - fewer jobs than programming (there are multiple times as many programming jobs than plumbing, for instance) - working conditions (no office work, expect hot/cold environments potentially far away from family)
- nine_zeros 2y ago
  > competition from non-Union labor Very little. Because non-union workers join the union as soon as they see the benefits. > broken body by 50 As opposed to broken minds by 50 for toxic corporate jobs. > fewer jobs than programming (there are multiple times as many programming jobs than plumbing, for instance) This is true. But that's because software development is considered one large blob while trades is broken into HVAC, plumbing, electrical etc. > working conditions (no office work, expect hot/cold environments potentially far away from family) And yet, they can pick and choose their work for the most part. No badging in for 5 day RTO BS.
  - kortilla 2y ago
    >Very little. Because non-union workers join the union as soon as they see the benefits. This isn't true and sounds like union propaganda. It's very easy to find non-union trade workers in big cities, even very liberal ones that are supportive of unions. >As opposed to broken minds by 50 for toxic corporate jobs. People don't have broken minds from corporate jobs. Physical damage from labor is real and extremely common. Every tradesman 40+ will tell you this. People retiring from corporate jobs do not consistently warn people that your mind will be broken. >And yet, they can pick and choose their work for the most part. No badging in for 5 day RTO BS. Are you joking? RTO isn't a thing because the trades were never allowed to work from home in the first place.
    - neverartful 2y ago
      I worked as a software engineer for 29 years and quit earlier this year. The stress and my blood pressure were significantly affecting my health and quality of life. I had started a part-time handyman business last year and took it full time after quitting my corporate job. My blood pressure and stress level have gone down a lot, but so has my paycheck and my benefits. I'm still glad that I made the switch because my last corporate job was going to kill me for the sake of corporate profits and executive bonuses. I would say that there's good/bad from both sides of the coin. It's a personal choice and not everyone is the same.
      - kortilla 2y ago
        Sounds like you took the handyman job as employtainment. Being a handyman is incredibly stressful if you’re trying to raise a family on that income and are having trouble making ends meet.
      - linotype 2y ago
        Glad you were able to get your BP under control, it’s a silent killer. Any tips?
        neverartful 2y ago
- throw234234234 2y ago
  > fewer jobs than programming (there are multiple times as many programming jobs than plumbing, for instance) Every blue collar worker I know would counter that with "AI". i.e, "at least my industry doesn't shoot itself in the foot"
  - ThrowawayR2 2y ago
    The miniscule fraction of people in the software industry who are building AI are not the people in the software industry who are at risk of being replaced by AI.
    - throw234234234 2y ago
      Do agree with that, at least in the short term (not the long term). But most industries tend to band together, form unions, associations, licenses, etc that would unify and put the workers in the same boat one way or the other especially blue collar which is what this article is about. The point still stands - other industries are "smarter" and wouldn't do this to themselves and have controls against this sort of thing.
- hyperG 2y ago
  Anyone working remote is just talking nonsense on this subject. I am related to a journeyman electrician and journeyman welder. They would give it up to work remote in a second.
clusterhacks 2y ago
"The average tradesperson in a HCOL is a millionaire by age 40 ...." This is a pretty bold claim that I'd like to dig into. Do you have a reference or source for this? What HCOL are you referring to? I'm quite interested in this whole topic of earnings and wealth in the trades. I am quite skeptical that any non-business-owner trades person is going to have a significant net worth (or earnings) above the general average locally, but maybe you can point me at a specific HCOL where the trades are more heavily unionized or something that would tell a more interesting story.
- nine_zeros 2y ago
  Here is BLS data: https://www.bls.gov/oes/2023/may/oes471011.htm https://www.bls.gov/oes/2023/may/oes471011.htm Remember that BLS data leans on the lower side. BLS data for software also leans lower. The reason they are millionaires by age 40 is because of the value of their houses. They bought early in life.
  - clusterhacks 2y ago
    This is for "First-Line Supervisors of Construction Trades and Extraction Workers." Does this represent the "average tradesperson" at age 40? If we dig into the BLS numbers for the people doing the work in what HN tends to talk about as trade workers: Plumber - median $61,550 per year [1] HVAC tech - median $57,300 per year [2] Electrician - median $61,590 per year [3] Framer(Carpenter) - median $56,350 per year [4] Bricklayer(Mason) - median $53,010 per year[5] Software engineer - median $130,160 per year [6] Of course, these are national numbers. We could pick and choose geographical areas to bump up the averages. It isn't immediately obvious to me what data source could give us a good answer to net worth by age for any of these careers. That is why I asked if you had a reference for it. It's even murkier when looking for data on when someone in the trades buys a house on average. My intuition (and I definitely don't mind being proved wrong) is that high earning, high-ish net worth trade workers is a story we want very much want to be true. But I just don't think it is, especially if we are talking about the average case. [1] https://www.bls.gov/ooh/construction-and-extraction/plumbers-pipefitters-and-steamfitters.htm [2] https://www.bls.gov/ooh/installation-maintenance-and-repair/heating-air-conditioning-and-refrigeration-mechanics-and-installers.htm [3] https://www.bls.gov/ooh/construction-and-extraction/electricians.htm [4] https://www.bls.gov/ooh/construction-and-extraction/carpenters.htm [5] https://www.bls.gov/ooh/construction-and-extraction/brickmasons-blockmasons-and-stonemasons.htm [6] https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/software-developers.htm

linotype 2y ago

You failed to mention any of the downsides: - competition from non-Union labor - broken body by 50 - fewer jobs than programming (there are multiple times as many programming jobs than plumbing, for instance) - working conditions (no office work, expect hot/cold environments potentially far away from family)

nine_zeros 2y ago
> competition from non-Union labor Very little. Because non-union workers join the union as soon as they see the benefits. > broken body by 50 As opposed to broken minds by 50 for toxic corporate jobs. > fewer jobs than programming (there are multiple times as many programming jobs than plumbing, for instance) This is true. But that's because software development is considered one large blob while trades is broken into HVAC, plumbing, electrical etc. > working conditions (no office work, expect hot/cold environments potentially far away from family) And yet, they can pick and choose their work for the most part. No badging in for 5 day RTO BS.
- kortilla 2y ago
  >Very little. Because non-union workers join the union as soon as they see the benefits. This isn't true and sounds like union propaganda. It's very easy to find non-union trade workers in big cities, even very liberal ones that are supportive of unions. >As opposed to broken minds by 50 for toxic corporate jobs. People don't have broken minds from corporate jobs. Physical damage from labor is real and extremely common. Every tradesman 40+ will tell you this. People retiring from corporate jobs do not consistently warn people that your mind will be broken. >And yet, they can pick and choose their work for the most part. No badging in for 5 day RTO BS. Are you joking? RTO isn't a thing because the trades were never allowed to work from home in the first place.
  - neverartful 2y ago
    I worked as a software engineer for 29 years and quit earlier this year. The stress and my blood pressure were significantly affecting my health and quality of life. I had started a part-time handyman business last year and took it full time after quitting my corporate job. My blood pressure and stress level have gone down a lot, but so has my paycheck and my benefits. I'm still glad that I made the switch because my last corporate job was going to kill me for the sake of corporate profits and executive bonuses. I would say that there's good/bad from both sides of the coin. It's a personal choice and not everyone is the same.
    - kortilla 2y ago
      Sounds like you took the handyman job as employtainment. Being a handyman is incredibly stressful if you’re trying to raise a family on that income and are having trouble making ends meet.
    - linotype 2y ago
      Glad you were able to get your BP under control, it’s a silent killer. Any tips?
      - neverartful 2y ago
throw234234234 2y ago
> fewer jobs than programming (there are multiple times as many programming jobs than plumbing, for instance) Every blue collar worker I know would counter that with "AI". i.e, "at least my industry doesn't shoot itself in the foot"
- ThrowawayR2 2y ago
  The miniscule fraction of people in the software industry who are building AI are not the people in the software industry who are at risk of being replaced by AI.
  - throw234234234 2y ago
    Do agree with that, at least in the short term (not the long term). But most industries tend to band together, form unions, associations, licenses, etc that would unify and put the workers in the same boat one way or the other especially blue collar which is what this article is about. The point still stands - other industries are "smarter" and wouldn't do this to themselves and have controls against this sort of thing.
hyperG 2y ago
Anyone working remote is just talking nonsense on this subject. I am related to a journeyman electrician and journeyman welder. They would give it up to work remote in a second.

clusterhacks 2y ago

"The average tradesperson in a HCOL is a millionaire by age 40 ...." This is a pretty bold claim that I'd like to dig into. Do you have a reference or source for this? What HCOL are you referring to? I'm quite interested in this whole topic of earnings and wealth in the trades. I am quite skeptical that any non-business-owner trades person is going to have a significant net worth (or earnings) above the general average locally, but maybe you can point me at a specific HCOL where the trades are more heavily unionized or something that would tell a more interesting story.

nine_zeros 2y ago
Here is BLS data: https://www.bls.gov/oes/2023/may/oes471011.htm https://www.bls.gov/oes/2023/may/oes471011.htm Remember that BLS data leans on the lower side. BLS data for software also leans lower. The reason they are millionaires by age 40 is because of the value of their houses. They bought early in life.
- clusterhacks 2y ago
  This is for "First-Line Supervisors of Construction Trades and Extraction Workers." Does this represent the "average tradesperson" at age 40? If we dig into the BLS numbers for the people doing the work in what HN tends to talk about as trade workers: Plumber - median $61,550 per year [1] HVAC tech - median $57,300 per year [2] Electrician - median $61,590 per year [3] Framer(Carpenter) - median $56,350 per year [4] Bricklayer(Mason) - median $53,010 per year[5] Software engineer - median $130,160 per year [6] Of course, these are national numbers. We could pick and choose geographical areas to bump up the averages. It isn't immediately obvious to me what data source could give us a good answer to net worth by age for any of these careers. That is why I asked if you had a reference for it. It's even murkier when looking for data on when someone in the trades buys a house on average. My intuition (and I definitely don't mind being proved wrong) is that high earning, high-ish net worth trade workers is a story we want very much want to be true. But I just don't think it is, especially if we are talking about the average case. [1] https://www.bls.gov/ooh/construction-and-extraction/plumbers-pipefitters-and-steamfitters.htm [2] https://www.bls.gov/ooh/installation-maintenance-and-repair/heating-air-conditioning-and-refrigeration-mechanics-and-installers.htm [3] https://www.bls.gov/ooh/construction-and-extraction/electricians.htm [4] https://www.bls.gov/ooh/construction-and-extraction/carpenters.htm [5] https://www.bls.gov/ooh/construction-and-extraction/brickmasons-blockmasons-and-stonemasons.htm [6] https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/software-developers.htm