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>But I'm not owed a decent salary in return for following my own dreams rather than my employer's dreams. Nobody is. Of course. On the other hand, one has to w

>But I'm not owed a decent salary in return for following my own dreams rather than my employer's dreams. Nobody is. Of course. On the other hand, one has to wonder which of this two occupations helps humanity more, and it's this the one that's paid better. And if not, should we rethink the way we reward work to prioritize things that help society instead.

CuriouslyC 2y ago
In the age of precision psychological influence and constant bombardment with low grade mind control, Capitalism is trash. To the most rapacious, the loudest, the most insidious go the spoils. If we're gonna keep the current system we need to slam the ban hammer on advertising and marketing with righteous fury.
nordsieck 2y ago
> should we rethink the way we reward work to prioritize things that help society instead. The problem is that everyone has different ideas about what helps society. At least the current system, where people are compensated based on supply and demand, people actually want what's being produced. In contrast to the old soviet system where top down production decisions mean that what's "best for society" is of no use to pretty much anyone except those people who needed to fill their quota.
- elashri 2y ago
  Why do you pick the two extreme situations. Isn't there a possibility of a middle ground?
  - robertlagrant 2y ago
    The current system is not an extreme. Only concentrating power into the people who will pick what is good for society is extreme.
    - elashri 2y ago
      The extreme here is underpaying the professors and researchers so much in comparison with others (Like University and labs administrators)
      - nordsieck 2y ago
        > The extreme here is underpaying the professors and researchers so much The problem is not that those people are underpaid. The problem is the morass of regulation that prevents people building enough housing where they want to live, which keeps the cost of housing high. And look - I get it - most of that regulation is there for a reason: it's popular. People like it. People like having rent control, or limited increases in property taxes. People in single family houses like not having apartment buildings go up next door to them. People like seeing green space on office campuses. People like mandatory parking requirements for homes and businesses. But ultimately, a high cost of living is deeply corrosive to society, and all the little perks that come from these regulations just aren't worth it.
        MiguelX413 2y ago
        All forms of structuring society are "regulation". Capitalism doesn't exist without private property law.
        nordsieck 2y ago
        > All forms of structuring society are "regulation" If you're going to count the emergent structure that forms from voluntary cooperation as "regulation", the word loses its meaning. > Capitalism doesn't exist without private property law. Sure it does. Laws aren't self-enforcing: the the thing that makes laws "real" is violence (or the threat of violence) backing them up. For those who are unable to avail themselves of remedies under the law - typically because they're engaging in illegal behavior - they can skip the law bit and move straight to violence. Basically every criminal organization or individual operates in this manner. I'm not saying it's nice to live this way - I very much like living in a place with a (mostly) functioning legal system. But Capitalism very much does exist without private property law.
s1artibartfast 2y ago
Sounds like there is an excess supply of physicists and physics professors, so on the margin they are no help at all.
- WkndTriathlete 2y ago
  Scientific discovery is not driven by economics 101. Your dismissal of "excess supply" based on "margins" eliminates breakthrough contributions by profs that work for 20-30 years producing marginal research until one day they make the connection that transforms the world. It's true that most professors never come up with breakthroughs. You cannot predict in advance which ones will. The best we can do is put many of them to work on research, connect them with their peers, and wait.
  - s1artibartfast 2y ago
    no thanks for me. I wont stop you from paying them out of your own pocket. This is all besides the point because lecturers aren't even a research position.

CuriouslyC 2y ago

In the age of precision psychological influence and constant bombardment with low grade mind control, Capitalism is trash. To the most rapacious, the loudest, the most insidious go the spoils. If we're gonna keep the current system we need to slam the ban hammer on advertising and marketing with righteous fury.

nordsieck 2y ago

> should we rethink the way we reward work to prioritize things that help society instead. The problem is that everyone has different ideas about what helps society. At least the current system, where people are compensated based on supply and demand, people actually want what's being produced. In contrast to the old soviet system where top down production decisions mean that what's "best for society" is of no use to pretty much anyone except those people who needed to fill their quota.

elashri 2y ago
Why do you pick the two extreme situations. Isn't there a possibility of a middle ground?
- robertlagrant 2y ago
  The current system is not an extreme. Only concentrating power into the people who will pick what is good for society is extreme.
  - elashri 2y ago
    The extreme here is underpaying the professors and researchers so much in comparison with others (Like University and labs administrators)
    - nordsieck 2y ago
      > The extreme here is underpaying the professors and researchers so much The problem is not that those people are underpaid. The problem is the morass of regulation that prevents people building enough housing where they want to live, which keeps the cost of housing high. And look - I get it - most of that regulation is there for a reason: it's popular. People like it. People like having rent control, or limited increases in property taxes. People in single family houses like not having apartment buildings go up next door to them. People like seeing green space on office campuses. People like mandatory parking requirements for homes and businesses. But ultimately, a high cost of living is deeply corrosive to society, and all the little perks that come from these regulations just aren't worth it.
      - MiguelX413 2y ago
        All forms of structuring society are "regulation". Capitalism doesn't exist without private property law.
        nordsieck 2y ago
        > All forms of structuring society are "regulation" If you're going to count the emergent structure that forms from voluntary cooperation as "regulation", the word loses its meaning. > Capitalism doesn't exist without private property law. Sure it does. Laws aren't self-enforcing: the the thing that makes laws "real" is violence (or the threat of violence) backing them up. For those who are unable to avail themselves of remedies under the law - typically because they're engaging in illegal behavior - they can skip the law bit and move straight to violence. Basically every criminal organization or individual operates in this manner. I'm not saying it's nice to live this way - I very much like living in a place with a (mostly) functioning legal system. But Capitalism very much does exist without private property law.

s1artibartfast 2y ago

Sounds like there is an excess supply of physicists and physics professors, so on the margin they are no help at all.

WkndTriathlete 2y ago
Scientific discovery is not driven by economics 101. Your dismissal of "excess supply" based on "margins" eliminates breakthrough contributions by profs that work for 20-30 years producing marginal research until one day they make the connection that transforms the world. It's true that most professors never come up with breakthroughs. You cannot predict in advance which ones will. The best we can do is put many of them to work on research, connect them with their peers, and wait.
- s1artibartfast 2y ago
  no thanks for me. I wont stop you from paying them out of your own pocket. This is all besides the point because lecturers aren't even a research position.