5 ms·

> time on a train can be better spent than time in a car because one doesn’t need to pay as much attention, which could be a small improvement to many people’s

by lucumo 2y ago

> time on a train can be better spent than time in a car because one doesn’t need to pay as much attention, which could be a small improvement to many people’s lives. This is not really true on busy trains. I've commuted both on trains and in cars, and when comparing transportation methods near the saturation point, cars win when it comes to personal comfort. A traffic jam is no fun, but you can still sit, aren't jostled about by other people, have your personal space, and keep your climate controlled to a good level. In a full train, you will be standing up, pressed against a bunch of other people. The climate will be other people's sweat. You may be able to use your phone, but not much more. On a longer quiet route the train can be very nice. Get your laptop out, do a little work, nice coffee or tea with you. But on a busy commuter line it's more annoying than a car.

willyt 2y ago
But if the train is that busy it likely couldn’t be replaced by people travelling in personal cars anyway as they would take up to much road space and cause a huge traffic jam and there would be nowhere to park at the end of the journey in a presumably dense city centre.
mu53 2y ago
Most people are likely buying this for the regional tickets. Those trains sell seats, and do not have passengers standing for the 1-3 hour journey.
throw0101c 2y ago
> I've commuted both on trains and in cars, and when comparing transportation methods near the saturation point, cars win when it comes to personal comfort. Note that if you're at the saturation point of both modes, you're moving a lot more people with (light/heavy) rail: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Passenger_Capacity_of_different_Transport_Modes.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Passenger_Capacity_of_dif... * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Route_capacity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Route_capacity Also worth considering that while it may be personally comfortable for you in on saturated rail, you're still moving towards your destination, whereas at car saturation you may be physically comfortable, but you are not making progress towards your goal of actually achieving your goal of getting to your destination while your speed is zero.
- jansan 2y ago
  That is like saying that with pig factory farming (aka intensive pig farming) you can produce far more meat per square foot than with organic pig farming and therefore it must be better.
  - throw0101c 2y ago
    > […] and therefore it must be better. Yes, it is better from a capacity point of view. If you have a linear path that is x metres wide, and you want/need to move a certain number of people, not-cars will move more people: * https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/01/Corridor_Capacity_and_Infrastructure_Costs.png https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/01/Corridor... * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis–Mogridge_position https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis–Mogridge_position Or, from another perspective, you have a budget of $/€ y for transportation, what mode of transportation will allow you to move the most people for that money? Unless you believe in MMT, government budgets are a finite resource, so how do we get the most bang for our buck? Certainly you need some roads as vehicles such as trucks (UK: lorries) are very handy for society in running the economy. I myself own a car, a motorcycle, a bicycle, and have a transit pass (though I can use debit/credit tap-to-pay) and use each mode when appropriate. But the overemphasis on automobiles—specifically for private transportation—is suffocating the availability for other options. To go back to your analogy: if you have a starving population, then factory farming is better because you can provide more calories to more people (and probably at lower cost). In that case organic is worse because you may be sacrificing people's well-being by not having enough capacity. Once you solve your first problem (enough calories/capacity), then you have the luxury of other considerations.
  - KptMarchewa 2y ago
    Obviously it is better. The better alternative to intensive animal husbandry is not eating meat (or other animal products, but in a lesser way) than greenwashing via "organic" designation.
rtpg 2y ago
I.... I really don't feel like driving in a traffic jam is better than being in a train in anything except the most extreme cases of train crowding. I haven't experienced massive commuter driving but even the cases I've just been stuck in stop and go traffic for 30 minutes it felt worse than any train ride I've taken except for the few times I was in "I feel like I'm going to get crushed" levels of crowded. And like... generally speaking, the crowded train is still going to get you where you need to go. I don't know how you walk away from the 30 minute trip that took 2+ hours with any happy feelings. To each their own of course
- BlackLotus89 2y ago
  > I don't know how you walk away from the 30 minute trip You never drove with the DB before I take it (die Bahn - German trains). You routinely have that a 30min trip takes multiple times of what it should. * train coming in late * no replacement * suddenly from another track * people taking their life * missing the follow train * having to wait because an ICE gets priority You don't know how many trips I had to cancel because coming 3 hours to late (when starting the trip 30min early) isn't viable. Yeah sure being in a traffic jam sucks! Big time. I hate it with all my heart, but I then start playing a podcast or calming music and actually get something out of it. It's actually not so nervewracking if you change your mindset. It bothers me more that I know that my mileage will tank for that short while... But yeah if I can I stay at home...
  - bratwurst3000 2y ago
    i also live in germany and its crazy. we are one to of the most developed country in the world and our train suck that hard that beeing stuck in traffic is way more pleasant and faster then beeing stuck somewhere for hours because of die bahn. and that’s frequent. i did have to take the train for 6 months with 1 change of train and it was completely full all the time and late half the time so a missed the other train. its not all trains but some are freaking late all the time. especially those between frankfort and stuttgart. there is a talk from daniel kriesel on youtube called bahn mining. very worth it edit:// i use the 49 ticket because it is nice to use trams and buses in towns.
  - 2y ago

by lucumo 2y ago

willyt 2y ago

But if the train is that busy it likely couldn’t be replaced by people travelling in personal cars anyway as they would take up to much road space and cause a huge traffic jam and there would be nowhere to park at the end of the journey in a presumably dense city centre.

mu53 2y ago

Most people are likely buying this for the regional tickets. Those trains sell seats, and do not have passengers standing for the 1-3 hour journey.

throw0101c 2y ago

> I've commuted both on trains and in cars, and when comparing transportation methods near the saturation point, cars win when it comes to personal comfort. Note that if you're at the saturation point of both modes, you're moving a lot more people with (light/heavy) rail: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Passenger_Capacity_of_different_Transport_Modes.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Passenger_Capacity_of_dif... * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Route_capacity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Route_capacity Also worth considering that while it may be personally comfortable for you in on saturated rail, you're still moving towards your destination, whereas at car saturation you may be physically comfortable, but you are not making progress towards your goal of actually achieving your goal of getting to your destination while your speed is zero.

jansan 2y ago
That is like saying that with pig factory farming (aka intensive pig farming) you can produce far more meat per square foot than with organic pig farming and therefore it must be better.
- throw0101c 2y ago
  > […] and therefore it must be better. Yes, it is better from a capacity point of view. If you have a linear path that is x metres wide, and you want/need to move a certain number of people, not-cars will move more people: * https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/01/Corridor_Capacity_and_Infrastructure_Costs.png https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/01/Corridor... * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis–Mogridge_position https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis–Mogridge_position Or, from another perspective, you have a budget of $/€ y for transportation, what mode of transportation will allow you to move the most people for that money? Unless you believe in MMT, government budgets are a finite resource, so how do we get the most bang for our buck? Certainly you need some roads as vehicles such as trucks (UK: lorries) are very handy for society in running the economy. I myself own a car, a motorcycle, a bicycle, and have a transit pass (though I can use debit/credit tap-to-pay) and use each mode when appropriate. But the overemphasis on automobiles—specifically for private transportation—is suffocating the availability for other options. To go back to your analogy: if you have a starving population, then factory farming is better because you can provide more calories to more people (and probably at lower cost). In that case organic is worse because you may be sacrificing people's well-being by not having enough capacity. Once you solve your first problem (enough calories/capacity), then you have the luxury of other considerations.
- KptMarchewa 2y ago
  Obviously it is better. The better alternative to intensive animal husbandry is not eating meat (or other animal products, but in a lesser way) than greenwashing via "organic" designation.

rtpg 2y ago

I.... I really don't feel like driving in a traffic jam is better than being in a train in anything except the most extreme cases of train crowding. I haven't experienced massive commuter driving but even the cases I've just been stuck in stop and go traffic for 30 minutes it felt worse than any train ride I've taken except for the few times I was in "I feel like I'm going to get crushed" levels of crowded. And like... generally speaking, the crowded train is still going to get you where you need to go. I don't know how you walk away from the 30 minute trip that took 2+ hours with any happy feelings. To each their own of course

BlackLotus89 2y ago
> I don't know how you walk away from the 30 minute trip You never drove with the DB before I take it (die Bahn - German trains). You routinely have that a 30min trip takes multiple times of what it should. * train coming in late * no replacement * suddenly from another track * people taking their life * missing the follow train * having to wait because an ICE gets priority You don't know how many trips I had to cancel because coming 3 hours to late (when starting the trip 30min early) isn't viable. Yeah sure being in a traffic jam sucks! Big time. I hate it with all my heart, but I then start playing a podcast or calming music and actually get something out of it. It's actually not so nervewracking if you change your mindset. It bothers me more that I know that my mileage will tank for that short while... But yeah if I can I stay at home...
- bratwurst3000 2y ago
  i also live in germany and its crazy. we are one to of the most developed country in the world and our train suck that hard that beeing stuck in traffic is way more pleasant and faster then beeing stuck somewhere for hours because of die bahn. and that’s frequent. i did have to take the train for 6 months with 1 change of train and it was completely full all the time and late half the time so a missed the other train. its not all trains but some are freaking late all the time. especially those between frankfort and stuttgart. there is a talk from daniel kriesel on youtube called bahn mining. very worth it edit:// i use the 49 ticket because it is nice to use trams and buses in towns.
- 2y ago