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> The "Five for the Future" contributions are specifically about contributing to WordPress Core, which is owned and controlled by Matt Mullenweg And? It is the

by shprd 2y ago

> The "Five for the Future" contributions are specifically about contributing to WordPress Core, which is owned and controlled by Matt Mullenweg And? It is the backbone that powers their entire business. You're acting like they're being asked to contribute to something they don't use. That should be the bare minimum. Even business wise it make sense to contribute to it and help make it better. It's absurd we're even having this discussion. You're also inconsistent. You claim something is fine because it's legal (the license doesn't ask for more as a condition) but you condemn the other party reaction on a different grounds? I thought everything you can get away with, legally, is OK. Matt has barely scratched the surface of what's within his power to do in response.

aimazon 2y ago
WP Engine are a Private Equity owned for-profit corporation who exist solely to hoover up as much revenue as possible, consequence be damned, that's Private Equity. Matt Mullenweg is an individual who professes to be an open-source software for-the-greater-good moral crusader. I hold them to very different standards. Matt has to behave according to his professed principles otherwise they're not his principles, they're just a mask. I release Open Source software under a permissive license: if I leverage my control over that software to harm the consumers of my software that I believe are taking without giving, then I am far worse than a leech. Regarding "WordPress Core": if WordPress Core is all that matters, why are plugins fundamental to WordPress? Why do millions of WordPress websites use Advanced Custom Fields? You've repeated a bunch of Matt's lies, either you're uninformed or not impartial. The latter cannot be addressed, the former can. Read more, speak less.
- shprd 2y ago
  > I hold them to very different standards It's foolish to support a private equity against the guy because you hold him to a higher standards. It doesn't even make sense. But this discussion is unlikely to lead anywhere.
  - aimazon 2y ago
    Matt isn't being held to a higher standard, he's being held to a different standard, a standard he chose. WP Engine is a company that chose to build a business around a piece of software released under a license that permits their commercialisation of the software. Matt is an individual who chose to release software under a license that permits companies to build a business around the software and has then chosen to initiate a "nuclear war" against one of those companies who is complying with the license he chose to release the software under because they are not contributing to the software in a way that he deems acceptable. They're fundamentally different actors in fundamentally different positions. WP Engine has behaved exactly as one would expect from the start. Matt has behaved in a way that suggests he has lost his damn mind, doing everything in his power to harm a business that is complying with the license he chose. I don't disagree with the idea that WP Engine should contribute more, I don't disagree that Private Equity is harmful to Open Source, but I fundamentally disagree with Matt's weaponisation of Open Source to make a point. There is a lot of great prior thinking on this subject[1], Matt has many options, he is making the choice to behave in this way, it is not a foregone conclusion. Our discussion isn't going to lead anywhere, but we can revisit it in a month when Matt's downward spiral has resulted in the inevitable. Perhaps, at that point, you'll reflect on whether Matt's behaviour was worth supporting. [1] https://dri.es/solving-the-maker-taker-problem https://dri.es/solving-the-maker-taker-problem
    - chiefalchemist 2y ago
      And thus the conclusion is: It's about money. Matt is having licensor remorse. He retroactively wants to change the license and the terms. Clearly, this isn't about OSS or PE, etc. It's about the depth of Matt's pockets. He might be drinking his own Kool Aid but few others are. A fork of WP might not be as "productive" but at least it won't have to carry a wild monkey Matt on its back.
- jart 2y ago
  Everyone should be held to the same standards. If my professed principle was to be evil, then would you judge me negatively if I acted good? I release software under a permissive license too. But I understand the only reason I'm able to do it, is because companies like Google and Mozilla believe in supporting people like me. There's this unwritten rule that the most successful people in our society should be philanthropic, because they're the only ones who can. However nothing formally requires this. It's similar to how a company might officially give you unlimited vacation days. Imagine if one person tests that rule, and makes every day a vacation day. It would probably take years before someone tries that, but once someone actually does, the rules are going to quickly change for everyone and you might end up with a lot less freedom than before. WPEngine has certainly tested the limits of the open source gift economy and the way Automattic is reacting isn't helping either. It's a sad thing to witness.
  - aimazon 2y ago
    If I release a fox into my hen house, who is at fault for the death of my hens: me or the fox?
    - jart 2y ago
      I don't think WPEngine is a fox. I think it's more like a factory farm moves in next door and sells your customers eggs at a lower price, because it keeps more hens cramped in metal cages. So eventually your family farm has to close its hen house and all your hens end up at the factory farm.

by shprd 2y ago

aimazon 2y ago

WP Engine are a Private Equity owned for-profit corporation who exist solely to hoover up as much revenue as possible, consequence be damned, that's Private Equity. Matt Mullenweg is an individual who professes to be an open-source software for-the-greater-good moral crusader. I hold them to very different standards. Matt has to behave according to his professed principles otherwise they're not his principles, they're just a mask. I release Open Source software under a permissive license: if I leverage my control over that software to harm the consumers of my software that I believe are taking without giving, then I am far worse than a leech. Regarding "WordPress Core": if WordPress Core is all that matters, why are plugins fundamental to WordPress? Why do millions of WordPress websites use Advanced Custom Fields? You've repeated a bunch of Matt's lies, either you're uninformed or not impartial. The latter cannot be addressed, the former can. Read more, speak less.

shprd 2y ago
> I hold them to very different standards It's foolish to support a private equity against the guy because you hold him to a higher standards. It doesn't even make sense. But this discussion is unlikely to lead anywhere.
- aimazon 2y ago
  Matt isn't being held to a higher standard, he's being held to a different standard, a standard he chose. WP Engine is a company that chose to build a business around a piece of software released under a license that permits their commercialisation of the software. Matt is an individual who chose to release software under a license that permits companies to build a business around the software and has then chosen to initiate a "nuclear war" against one of those companies who is complying with the license he chose to release the software under because they are not contributing to the software in a way that he deems acceptable. They're fundamentally different actors in fundamentally different positions. WP Engine has behaved exactly as one would expect from the start. Matt has behaved in a way that suggests he has lost his damn mind, doing everything in his power to harm a business that is complying with the license he chose. I don't disagree with the idea that WP Engine should contribute more, I don't disagree that Private Equity is harmful to Open Source, but I fundamentally disagree with Matt's weaponisation of Open Source to make a point. There is a lot of great prior thinking on this subject[1], Matt has many options, he is making the choice to behave in this way, it is not a foregone conclusion. Our discussion isn't going to lead anywhere, but we can revisit it in a month when Matt's downward spiral has resulted in the inevitable. Perhaps, at that point, you'll reflect on whether Matt's behaviour was worth supporting. [1] https://dri.es/solving-the-maker-taker-problem https://dri.es/solving-the-maker-taker-problem
  - chiefalchemist 2y ago
    And thus the conclusion is: It's about money. Matt is having licensor remorse. He retroactively wants to change the license and the terms. Clearly, this isn't about OSS or PE, etc. It's about the depth of Matt's pockets. He might be drinking his own Kool Aid but few others are. A fork of WP might not be as "productive" but at least it won't have to carry a wild monkey Matt on its back.
jart 2y ago
Everyone should be held to the same standards. If my professed principle was to be evil, then would you judge me negatively if I acted good? I release software under a permissive license too. But I understand the only reason I'm able to do it, is because companies like Google and Mozilla believe in supporting people like me. There's this unwritten rule that the most successful people in our society should be philanthropic, because they're the only ones who can. However nothing formally requires this. It's similar to how a company might officially give you unlimited vacation days. Imagine if one person tests that rule, and makes every day a vacation day. It would probably take years before someone tries that, but once someone actually does, the rules are going to quickly change for everyone and you might end up with a lot less freedom than before. WPEngine has certainly tested the limits of the open source gift economy and the way Automattic is reacting isn't helping either. It's a sad thing to witness.
- aimazon 2y ago
  If I release a fox into my hen house, who is at fault for the death of my hens: me or the fox?
  - jart 2y ago
    I don't think WPEngine is a fox. I think it's more like a factory farm moves in next door and sells your customers eggs at a lower price, because it keeps more hens cramped in metal cages. So eventually your family farm has to close its hen house and all your hens end up at the factory farm.