5 ms·

Road wear scales with the fourth power of weight over the axle so, even with personal cars getting heavier, I’m not sure that moving people from cars to trains

Road wear scales with the fourth power of weight over the axle so, even with personal cars getting heavier, I’m not sure that moving people from cars to trains makes much of a difference – I think most wear typically comes from heavy vehicles or weathering – so it mightn’t make much difference to repair costs. That doesn’t mean there aren’t other advantages. Eg reducing parking spaces (as a sibling points out) to increase urban density is probably good for the economy, and time on a train can be better spent than time in a car because one doesn’t need to pay as much attention, which could be a small improvement to many people’s lives.

ivan_gammel 2y ago
> Eg reducing parking spaces (as a sibling points out) to increase urban density is probably good for the economy Looking at most German cities, the effect of this is negligible.
- The_Colonel 2y ago
  I actually observe reduction of parking spaces in public spaces. Although I don't think it could be an effect of Deutschlandticket, too little time to have an effect IMHO.
  - ivan_gammel 2y ago
    German cities have much less parking lots than American ones because of the way they were built. There may be a few that you can replace with a building, but not a lot.
    - The_Colonel 2y ago
      In the first comment you seemed to have commented on the effect of the Deutschland ticket and now you seem to comment on the difference between US and German cities. Somehow I don't understand the connection between the two / your point.
      - ivan_gammel 2y ago
        I‘m commenting on reduction of parking spaces. In Germany there’s not so much parking to observe any visible effects. USA was mentioned only for comparison, because they have a lot of parking and there it could be noticeable.
        The_Colonel 2y ago
        > In Germany there’s not so much parking to observe any visible effects. That doesn't make sense. German streets are full of cars, partly because there's insufficient dedicated parking space. Lower car ownership would have a very visible effect on the streets.
        ivan_gammel 2y ago
        Yes, you can remove cars from the streets. My point is, you cannot use that space to increase urban density, because that space aren't parking lots. You can plant more trees, add bike lanes or convert the entire street to a pedestrian zone with a playground. But you cannot build there.
lucumo 2y ago
> time on a train can be better spent than time in a car because one doesn’t need to pay as much attention, which could be a small improvement to many people’s lives. This is not really true on busy trains. I've commuted both on trains and in cars, and when comparing transportation methods near the saturation point, cars win when it comes to personal comfort. A traffic jam is no fun, but you can still sit, aren't jostled about by other people, have your personal space, and keep your climate controlled to a good level. In a full train, you will be standing up, pressed against a bunch of other people. The climate will be other people's sweat. You may be able to use your phone, but not much more. On a longer quiet route the train can be very nice. Get your laptop out, do a little work, nice coffee or tea with you. But on a busy commuter line it's more annoying than a car.
- willyt 2y ago
  But if the train is that busy it likely couldn’t be replaced by people travelling in personal cars anyway as they would take up to much road space and cause a huge traffic jam and there would be nowhere to park at the end of the journey in a presumably dense city centre.
- mu53 2y ago
  Most people are likely buying this for the regional tickets. Those trains sell seats, and do not have passengers standing for the 1-3 hour journey.
- throw0101c 2y ago
  > I've commuted both on trains and in cars, and when comparing transportation methods near the saturation point, cars win when it comes to personal comfort. Note that if you're at the saturation point of both modes, you're moving a lot more people with (light/heavy) rail: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Passenger_Capacity_of_different_Transport_Modes.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Passenger_Capacity_of_dif... * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Route_capacity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Route_capacity Also worth considering that while it may be personally comfortable for you in on saturated rail, you're still moving towards your destination, whereas at car saturation you may be physically comfortable, but you are not making progress towards your goal of actually achieving your goal of getting to your destination while your speed is zero.

ivan_gammel 2y ago

> Eg reducing parking spaces (as a sibling points out) to increase urban density is probably good for the economy Looking at most German cities, the effect of this is negligible.

The_Colonel 2y ago
I actually observe reduction of parking spaces in public spaces. Although I don't think it could be an effect of Deutschlandticket, too little time to have an effect IMHO.
- ivan_gammel 2y ago
  German cities have much less parking lots than American ones because of the way they were built. There may be a few that you can replace with a building, but not a lot.
  - The_Colonel 2y ago
    In the first comment you seemed to have commented on the effect of the Deutschland ticket and now you seem to comment on the difference between US and German cities. Somehow I don't understand the connection between the two / your point.
    - ivan_gammel 2y ago
      I‘m commenting on reduction of parking spaces. In Germany there’s not so much parking to observe any visible effects. USA was mentioned only for comparison, because they have a lot of parking and there it could be noticeable.
      - The_Colonel 2y ago
        > In Germany there’s not so much parking to observe any visible effects. That doesn't make sense. German streets are full of cars, partly because there's insufficient dedicated parking space. Lower car ownership would have a very visible effect on the streets.
        ivan_gammel 2y ago
        Yes, you can remove cars from the streets. My point is, you cannot use that space to increase urban density, because that space aren't parking lots. You can plant more trees, add bike lanes or convert the entire street to a pedestrian zone with a playground. But you cannot build there.

lucumo 2y ago

> time on a train can be better spent than time in a car because one doesn’t need to pay as much attention, which could be a small improvement to many people’s lives. This is not really true on busy trains. I've commuted both on trains and in cars, and when comparing transportation methods near the saturation point, cars win when it comes to personal comfort. A traffic jam is no fun, but you can still sit, aren't jostled about by other people, have your personal space, and keep your climate controlled to a good level. In a full train, you will be standing up, pressed against a bunch of other people. The climate will be other people's sweat. You may be able to use your phone, but not much more. On a longer quiet route the train can be very nice. Get your laptop out, do a little work, nice coffee or tea with you. But on a busy commuter line it's more annoying than a car.

willyt 2y ago
But if the train is that busy it likely couldn’t be replaced by people travelling in personal cars anyway as they would take up to much road space and cause a huge traffic jam and there would be nowhere to park at the end of the journey in a presumably dense city centre.
mu53 2y ago
Most people are likely buying this for the regional tickets. Those trains sell seats, and do not have passengers standing for the 1-3 hour journey.
throw0101c 2y ago
> I've commuted both on trains and in cars, and when comparing transportation methods near the saturation point, cars win when it comes to personal comfort. Note that if you're at the saturation point of both modes, you're moving a lot more people with (light/heavy) rail: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Passenger_Capacity_of_different_Transport_Modes.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Passenger_Capacity_of_dif... * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Route_capacity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Route_capacity Also worth considering that while it may be personally comfortable for you in on saturated rail, you're still moving towards your destination, whereas at car saturation you may be physically comfortable, but you are not making progress towards your goal of actually achieving your goal of getting to your destination while your speed is zero.