8 ms·

Funding road repairs, construction, and expansion from general tax revenues is similarly subsidizing a different mode of transit, and it's likely a much higher

Funding road repairs, construction, and expansion from general tax revenues is similarly subsidizing a different mode of transit, and it's likely a much higher value than the 3b€ you mention (and likely more than overall railway sector subsidizing, tho I'm not familiar with Germany's budget). Also recognizing that other positive externalities exist, but pricing them at $0, seems silly.

Happily2020 2y ago
Not to mention subsidised parking spaces. Free and even paid street parking is highly subsidised by the city and by other tax payers. There's also the environmental cost of not having that land be a park or nature and instead have it contribute to being an urban heat island with all its asphalt.
- looofooo0 2y ago
  Healthcare cost also decline, and people become less sick because you have to walk some amount to get to the train.
  - piyuv 2y ago
    The air quality improving should also be a factor.
  - shankr 2y ago
    Although you fall sick more often in winter when using public transportation.
    - ndsipa_pomu 2y ago
      Is that a rigorous statistical analysis or just your impression?
      - shankr 2y ago
        It was instrumental in spreading COVID[1]. Also found to be the case with other airborne diseases[2] [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8552583/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8552583/ [2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6280530/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6280530/
      - throw4950sh06 2y ago
        Some people actually try these things... And not writing an academic paper about it doesn't make it wrong.
        ndsipa_pomu 2y ago
        Not writing an academic paper about it doesn't make it right either. This is the problem, when it's just hearsay, the rest of us have nothing to judge its accuracy with. When looking at something as complex as people's behaviour, then it's worth allowing for seasonal variations in public transport use (e.g. when it's raining people may decide to get the bus rather than walk). Could it be related to the length of their journeys and/or their net worth? (There's a strong correlation between health and wealth). How does it compare to a similar section of the population that drive or cycle instead?
        throw4950sh06 2y ago
        You can look into it yourself. This is a web forum, not university. I don't understand how are your questions going to answer anything anyways - it's not like the answer is going to be the same anywhere.
  - finikytou 2y ago
    in Paris (and pretty sure that applies to pretty much any big western city, new york for instance is worse in a few of the criterias ill reference) subway increase stress, frequent delays(if you have 2-3 train as part of your commute you will experience it daily), pollution down under is high, virus/covid transmission is high, pickpockets are everywhere if not worse, bedbug, pee smell, junkies. Id take a car any day.
    - account42 2y ago
      Yes, even just 15 or 30 minutes more spent on commute every day is a significan quality of life decrease.
    - neither_color 2y ago
      This is much less of a problem in large Asian cities. They're only really stressful in rush hour crowds. But in places like NY the public seems much less interested in the initial policing, maintenance, and cultural attitude shifts that would be required to make it happen. Like, you could still have the artists, street performers, and other so-called charming quirks while still making sure the problematic passengers get the help they need. What's it going to take? You could even do a trial period, like one year of safe, clean metros and see if people want to go back to the way things are now.
      - PaulHoule 2y ago
        It is easy to say but not easy to do. Post Szasz and Reagan we’ve had the policy of deinstitutionalization of the mentally ill. Thus you have a lot of people with schizophrenia who have no insight into their condition who are very hard to manage. Even in a town where services are relatively available there are many people who take years to accept a diagnosis which can get them on disability and receiving permanent help. Probably the best we can do for these people is get them stabilized on an antipsychotic drug and then get them in the clinic every few months for a depot injection but even that is pretty hard.
        bluGill 2y ago
- 6510 2y ago
  It has secretly become unrealistic to have cars in a city, we still do it but more out of tradition. You wouldn't build parks (tho that would be nice) 1 parked car, the road next to it and the second side walk take about as much space as an apartment and we stack those one on top of the other. Something like this is quite hilarious if you think about it. https://www.alamy.com/parking-in-the-courtyard-of-high-rise-buildings-in-summer-aerial-view-image471188550.html?imageid=82A0A647-2854-48C2-BBCF-B3D078C1A60E&p=360156&pn=1&searchId=c6035054e83ecebdd4aca582690447d4&searchtype=0 https://www.alamy.com/parking-in-the-courtyard-of-high-rise-... It reminds me of grazing cows having 80 times as much space as people in some parts of my country.
  - Nullabillity 2y ago
    You don't have to build it like that. Where I live now, the parking lot is effectively the basement under the apartment buildings and playground. You'd barely interact with it unless you're driving.
    - consteval 2y ago
      Well when you put it like that it sounds very economical!
    - 6510 2y ago
      Housing is getting so expensive that people share tiny apartments while still able to afford two cars. With that ratio you need 10 floors of parking for 10 floors of housing. I always thought it funny how popular elevators are for vertical travel. A monorail station in the basement or even a ski lift seems a lot less space consuming. If it means you can get a home 120m2 (1300 sq ft) in stead of 60m2 (650 sq ft) it seems worth considering.
- andrepd 2y ago
  Absolutely. Next time you see a free parking spot mentally calculate the rent of ~10m² on that part of the city to understand how much of a subsidy that is. Then multiply by 50 parking spots in a street. Then think how many thousands there are all over the city...
  - finikytou 2y ago
    do you have free parking? cities are making money out of parking spots. a lot of money. so much than one would say they have an incentive to reduce parking space to increase price and reduce expenses
    - consteval 2y ago
      I think even high rates don't get close to breaking even.
    - PaulRobinson 2y ago
      Cities and councils should not be making decisions based on how to raise revenue. They should be making decisions based on how to improve quality of life for residents. Parking should exist where public transport is not a viable option. Ideally the work to make public transport an option should be prioritised over the work to making parking exist. Cities and councils can make money from public transport too, it'll work out OK revenue-wise, and quality of life improvements can be considerable.
      - eru 2y ago
        > Cities and councils should not be making decisions based on how to raise revenue. Why not? > They should be making decisions based on how to improve quality of life for residents. Residents can use money to purchase goods and services to improve their quality of life. > Parking should exist where public transport is not a viable option. And the market can provide parking at market-prices. (And, cities and councils can perhaps also offer parking at market prices on their properties.)
        2y ago
- eru 2y ago
  Yes, though all of that is more of an argument in favour of dropping car subsidies, than an argument in favour of more rail subsidies.
dan-robertson 2y ago
Road wear scales with the fourth power of weight over the axle so, even with personal cars getting heavier, I’m not sure that moving people from cars to trains makes much of a difference – I think most wear typically comes from heavy vehicles or weathering – so it mightn’t make much difference to repair costs. That doesn’t mean there aren’t other advantages. Eg reducing parking spaces (as a sibling points out) to increase urban density is probably good for the economy, and time on a train can be better spent than time in a car because one doesn’t need to pay as much attention, which could be a small improvement to many people’s lives.
- ivan_gammel 2y ago
  > Eg reducing parking spaces (as a sibling points out) to increase urban density is probably good for the economy Looking at most German cities, the effect of this is negligible.
  - The_Colonel 2y ago
    I actually observe reduction of parking spaces in public spaces. Although I don't think it could be an effect of Deutschlandticket, too little time to have an effect IMHO.
    - ivan_gammel 2y ago
      German cities have much less parking lots than American ones because of the way they were built. There may be a few that you can replace with a building, but not a lot.
      - The_Colonel 2y ago
        In the first comment you seemed to have commented on the effect of the Deutschland ticket and now you seem to comment on the difference between US and German cities. Somehow I don't understand the connection between the two / your point.
jajko 2y ago
German chancellor plans to put road repairs into 2% mandatory defense budget to meet NATO requirements, so not that much of a load to overall german budget. Not trying to detract discussion, just finding it hilarious that when facing a potentially existential threat from russians who repeatedly claim they will wipe them out, they will do just about anything rather than making their military into something a bit better than an chronically underfunded joke its now.
- diordiderot 2y ago
  I believe the road budget was 132.8 billion between 2016 and 2030
- chgs 2y ago
  A strong German military with an ascendant far right party. What could possibly go wrong.
- fransje26 2y ago
  Actually, it makes quite a bit of sense to plan ahead to make sure that your infrastructure can efficiently transport the weapon systems you already have, or you are planning to have. What's the use of tanks if you can't get them to the battlefield? [1] Although some infrastructure was already built taking logistics into account [2], concrete structures have a life expectancy of about 50 years, and many bridges are past that age and need urgent replacement. And that costs a lot of money. A small reminder on the importance of bridges: [3] [1] https://nationalinterest.org/blog/reboot/what-can-stop-nato-tanks-europe-weak-older-bridges-196505 https://nationalinterest.org/blog/reboot/what-can-stop-nato-... [2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Load_Classification https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Load_Classification [3] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-64664944 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-64664944
  - bluGill 2y ago
    It is also important to make sure your military equipment can travel across rough ground after the retreating enemy has destroyed all roads, rails, and bridges. Of course in that situation you don't care much about saving the ground you are covering while chasing the enemy, but lack of roads is not fatal (there is good reason the military likes it - it makes their logistic much easier on safe ground)
xienze 2y ago
Aren’t roads necessary from a “last mile” perspective for like, all sorts of things a functioning country needs? Last time I checked trains don’t run directly from farms to grocery stores and so we need trucks and therefore roads in order to get food to consumers, among other things.
- bluGill 2y ago
  Much less roads. Humans can walk - and for health should. a few trucks are still needed but trucks used to haul are a minoricy of traffic
- SECProto 2y ago
  > Aren’t roads necessary from a “last mile” perspective for like, all sorts of things a functioning country needs? Yup, absolutely! But at least where I've worked on road design, the number of lanes on a local road is governed pretty much solely by the number of cars (trucks just have a larger impact on asphalt structure choices and, balance with the impacts of freeze-thaw, resurfacing schedule). But this is about longer distance travel - trains generally being used for intercity travel vs highways. Even still, I don't argue against road subsidization, but rather in favour of more train subsidization.
- rakoo 2y ago
  They're necessary because cities are built around the idea that everything must be done through a car, so roads become necessary. It's a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy. The underlying discussion is all about urban planning and how we want societies to organize space.
graemep 2y ago
I do not know about Germany, but most countries have taxes on car ownership and fuel, so you need to offset those against the expenditure on roads. Road construction and maintenance also benefits other road users - transport vehicles, cyclists and pedestrians and emergency vehicles etc.
- Zamiel_Snawley 2y ago
  The degradation of road surfaces is caused almost entirely by automobiles. Think of how often dedicated walking and cycling routes need to be repaved—almost never. Car owners only pay about half of the cost of road maintenance in the US[1]. [1] https://frontiergroup.org/resources/who-pays-roads/ https://frontiergroup.org/resources/who-pays-roads/
  - thirdsun 2y ago
    > Think of how often dedicated walking and cycling routes need to be repaved—almost never. The condition of many german cycling paths would beg to differ.
  - graemep 2y ago
    How much in germany, which is what the post is about? How much in other countrie? > The degradation of road surfaces is caused almost entirely by automobiles. Given the fourth power law I find it hard to believe that larger vehicles, especially good vehicles , are not significant. Even without wear, surfaces deteriorate. You cannot claim that pavements and cycle lanes are zero maintenance, or have negligible costs to build.
  - jmb99 2y ago
    > The degradation of road surfaces is caused almost entirely by automobiles. This should read: The degradation of road surfaces is caused almost entirely by heavy trucks. Road wear is proportional to the fourth power of axle weight. A fully loaded cement truck or transport truck is doing way more damage than a fully loaded box truck, which is doing much more damage than a Hummer EV, which is doing much more damage than a Tesla Model S or F150, which is doing more damage than a Nissan Micra or Mazda Miata. Here’s[0] a page with a neat chart showing relative comparisons. Note that it tops out at 18k lb trucks, which are ~1200x as damaging as something like a Prius; it doesn’t include fully loaded trucks, which can exceed 80k lbs in North America. The amount of damage to roads they do compared to average or lightweight cars is mind boggling. [0] https://streets.mn/2016/07/07/chart-of-the-day-vehicle-weight-vs-road-damage-levels/ https://streets.mn/2016/07/07/chart-of-the-day-vehicle-weigh...

Happily2020 2y ago

Not to mention subsidised parking spaces. Free and even paid street parking is highly subsidised by the city and by other tax payers. There's also the environmental cost of not having that land be a park or nature and instead have it contribute to being an urban heat island with all its asphalt.

looofooo0 2y ago
Healthcare cost also decline, and people become less sick because you have to walk some amount to get to the train.
- piyuv 2y ago
  The air quality improving should also be a factor.
- shankr 2y ago
  Although you fall sick more often in winter when using public transportation.
  - ndsipa_pomu 2y ago
    Is that a rigorous statistical analysis or just your impression?
    - shankr 2y ago
      It was instrumental in spreading COVID[1]. Also found to be the case with other airborne diseases[2] [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8552583/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8552583/ [2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6280530/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6280530/
    - throw4950sh06 2y ago
      Some people actually try these things... And not writing an academic paper about it doesn't make it wrong.
      - ndsipa_pomu 2y ago
        Not writing an academic paper about it doesn't make it right either. This is the problem, when it's just hearsay, the rest of us have nothing to judge its accuracy with. When looking at something as complex as people's behaviour, then it's worth allowing for seasonal variations in public transport use (e.g. when it's raining people may decide to get the bus rather than walk). Could it be related to the length of their journeys and/or their net worth? (There's a strong correlation between health and wealth). How does it compare to a similar section of the population that drive or cycle instead?
        throw4950sh06 2y ago
        You can look into it yourself. This is a web forum, not university. I don't understand how are your questions going to answer anything anyways - it's not like the answer is going to be the same anywhere.
- finikytou 2y ago
  in Paris (and pretty sure that applies to pretty much any big western city, new york for instance is worse in a few of the criterias ill reference) subway increase stress, frequent delays(if you have 2-3 train as part of your commute you will experience it daily), pollution down under is high, virus/covid transmission is high, pickpockets are everywhere if not worse, bedbug, pee smell, junkies. Id take a car any day.
  - account42 2y ago
    Yes, even just 15 or 30 minutes more spent on commute every day is a significan quality of life decrease.
  - neither_color 2y ago
    This is much less of a problem in large Asian cities. They're only really stressful in rush hour crowds. But in places like NY the public seems much less interested in the initial policing, maintenance, and cultural attitude shifts that would be required to make it happen. Like, you could still have the artists, street performers, and other so-called charming quirks while still making sure the problematic passengers get the help they need. What's it going to take? You could even do a trial period, like one year of safe, clean metros and see if people want to go back to the way things are now.
    - PaulHoule 2y ago
      It is easy to say but not easy to do. Post Szasz and Reagan we’ve had the policy of deinstitutionalization of the mentally ill. Thus you have a lot of people with schizophrenia who have no insight into their condition who are very hard to manage. Even in a town where services are relatively available there are many people who take years to accept a diagnosis which can get them on disability and receiving permanent help. Probably the best we can do for these people is get them stabilized on an antipsychotic drug and then get them in the clinic every few months for a depot injection but even that is pretty hard.
      - bluGill 2y ago
6510 2y ago
It has secretly become unrealistic to have cars in a city, we still do it but more out of tradition. You wouldn't build parks (tho that would be nice) 1 parked car, the road next to it and the second side walk take about as much space as an apartment and we stack those one on top of the other. Something like this is quite hilarious if you think about it. https://www.alamy.com/parking-in-the-courtyard-of-high-rise-buildings-in-summer-aerial-view-image471188550.html?imageid=82A0A647-2854-48C2-BBCF-B3D078C1A60E&p=360156&pn=1&searchId=c6035054e83ecebdd4aca582690447d4&searchtype=0 https://www.alamy.com/parking-in-the-courtyard-of-high-rise-... It reminds me of grazing cows having 80 times as much space as people in some parts of my country.
- Nullabillity 2y ago
  You don't have to build it like that. Where I live now, the parking lot is effectively the basement under the apartment buildings and playground. You'd barely interact with it unless you're driving.
  - consteval 2y ago
    Well when you put it like that it sounds very economical!
  - 6510 2y ago
    Housing is getting so expensive that people share tiny apartments while still able to afford two cars. With that ratio you need 10 floors of parking for 10 floors of housing. I always thought it funny how popular elevators are for vertical travel. A monorail station in the basement or even a ski lift seems a lot less space consuming. If it means you can get a home 120m2 (1300 sq ft) in stead of 60m2 (650 sq ft) it seems worth considering.
andrepd 2y ago
Absolutely. Next time you see a free parking spot mentally calculate the rent of ~10m² on that part of the city to understand how much of a subsidy that is. Then multiply by 50 parking spots in a street. Then think how many thousands there are all over the city...
- finikytou 2y ago
  do you have free parking? cities are making money out of parking spots. a lot of money. so much than one would say they have an incentive to reduce parking space to increase price and reduce expenses
  - consteval 2y ago
    I think even high rates don't get close to breaking even.
  - PaulRobinson 2y ago
    Cities and councils should not be making decisions based on how to raise revenue. They should be making decisions based on how to improve quality of life for residents. Parking should exist where public transport is not a viable option. Ideally the work to make public transport an option should be prioritised over the work to making parking exist. Cities and councils can make money from public transport too, it'll work out OK revenue-wise, and quality of life improvements can be considerable.
    - eru 2y ago
      > Cities and councils should not be making decisions based on how to raise revenue. Why not? > They should be making decisions based on how to improve quality of life for residents. Residents can use money to purchase goods and services to improve their quality of life. > Parking should exist where public transport is not a viable option. And the market can provide parking at market-prices. (And, cities and councils can perhaps also offer parking at market prices on their properties.)
      - 2y ago
eru 2y ago
Yes, though all of that is more of an argument in favour of dropping car subsidies, than an argument in favour of more rail subsidies.

dan-robertson 2y ago

Road wear scales with the fourth power of weight over the axle so, even with personal cars getting heavier, I’m not sure that moving people from cars to trains makes much of a difference – I think most wear typically comes from heavy vehicles or weathering – so it mightn’t make much difference to repair costs. That doesn’t mean there aren’t other advantages. Eg reducing parking spaces (as a sibling points out) to increase urban density is probably good for the economy, and time on a train can be better spent than time in a car because one doesn’t need to pay as much attention, which could be a small improvement to many people’s lives.

ivan_gammel 2y ago
> Eg reducing parking spaces (as a sibling points out) to increase urban density is probably good for the economy Looking at most German cities, the effect of this is negligible.
- The_Colonel 2y ago
  I actually observe reduction of parking spaces in public spaces. Although I don't think it could be an effect of Deutschlandticket, too little time to have an effect IMHO.
  - ivan_gammel 2y ago
    German cities have much less parking lots than American ones because of the way they were built. There may be a few that you can replace with a building, but not a lot.
    - The_Colonel 2y ago
      In the first comment you seemed to have commented on the effect of the Deutschland ticket and now you seem to comment on the difference between US and German cities. Somehow I don't understand the connection between the two / your point.

jajko 2y ago

German chancellor plans to put road repairs into 2% mandatory defense budget to meet NATO requirements, so not that much of a load to overall german budget. Not trying to detract discussion, just finding it hilarious that when facing a potentially existential threat from russians who repeatedly claim they will wipe them out, they will do just about anything rather than making their military into something a bit better than an chronically underfunded joke its now.

diordiderot 2y ago
I believe the road budget was 132.8 billion between 2016 and 2030
chgs 2y ago
A strong German military with an ascendant far right party. What could possibly go wrong.
fransje26 2y ago
Actually, it makes quite a bit of sense to plan ahead to make sure that your infrastructure can efficiently transport the weapon systems you already have, or you are planning to have. What's the use of tanks if you can't get them to the battlefield? [1] Although some infrastructure was already built taking logistics into account [2], concrete structures have a life expectancy of about 50 years, and many bridges are past that age and need urgent replacement. And that costs a lot of money. A small reminder on the importance of bridges: [3] [1] https://nationalinterest.org/blog/reboot/what-can-stop-nato-tanks-europe-weak-older-bridges-196505 https://nationalinterest.org/blog/reboot/what-can-stop-nato-... [2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Load_Classification https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Load_Classification [3] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-64664944 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-64664944
- bluGill 2y ago
  It is also important to make sure your military equipment can travel across rough ground after the retreating enemy has destroyed all roads, rails, and bridges. Of course in that situation you don't care much about saving the ground you are covering while chasing the enemy, but lack of roads is not fatal (there is good reason the military likes it - it makes their logistic much easier on safe ground)

xienze 2y ago

Aren’t roads necessary from a “last mile” perspective for like, all sorts of things a functioning country needs? Last time I checked trains don’t run directly from farms to grocery stores and so we need trucks and therefore roads in order to get food to consumers, among other things.

bluGill 2y ago
Much less roads. Humans can walk - and for health should. a few trucks are still needed but trucks used to haul are a minoricy of traffic
SECProto 2y ago
> Aren’t roads necessary from a “last mile” perspective for like, all sorts of things a functioning country needs? Yup, absolutely! But at least where I've worked on road design, the number of lanes on a local road is governed pretty much solely by the number of cars (trucks just have a larger impact on asphalt structure choices and, balance with the impacts of freeze-thaw, resurfacing schedule). But this is about longer distance travel - trains generally being used for intercity travel vs highways. Even still, I don't argue against road subsidization, but rather in favour of more train subsidization.
rakoo 2y ago
They're necessary because cities are built around the idea that everything must be done through a car, so roads become necessary. It's a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy. The underlying discussion is all about urban planning and how we want societies to organize space.

graemep 2y ago

I do not know about Germany, but most countries have taxes on car ownership and fuel, so you need to offset those against the expenditure on roads. Road construction and maintenance also benefits other road users - transport vehicles, cyclists and pedestrians and emergency vehicles etc.

Zamiel_Snawley 2y ago
The degradation of road surfaces is caused almost entirely by automobiles. Think of how often dedicated walking and cycling routes need to be repaved—almost never. Car owners only pay about half of the cost of road maintenance in the US[1]. [1] https://frontiergroup.org/resources/who-pays-roads/ https://frontiergroup.org/resources/who-pays-roads/
- thirdsun 2y ago
  > Think of how often dedicated walking and cycling routes need to be repaved—almost never. The condition of many german cycling paths would beg to differ.
- graemep 2y ago
  How much in germany, which is what the post is about? How much in other countrie? > The degradation of road surfaces is caused almost entirely by automobiles. Given the fourth power law I find it hard to believe that larger vehicles, especially good vehicles , are not significant. Even without wear, surfaces deteriorate. You cannot claim that pavements and cycle lanes are zero maintenance, or have negligible costs to build.
- jmb99 2y ago
  > The degradation of road surfaces is caused almost entirely by automobiles. This should read: The degradation of road surfaces is caused almost entirely by heavy trucks. Road wear is proportional to the fourth power of axle weight. A fully loaded cement truck or transport truck is doing way more damage than a fully loaded box truck, which is doing much more damage than a Hummer EV, which is doing much more damage than a Tesla Model S or F150, which is doing more damage than a Nissan Micra or Mazda Miata. Here’s[0] a page with a neat chart showing relative comparisons. Note that it tops out at 18k lb trucks, which are ~1200x as damaging as something like a Prius; it doesn’t include fully loaded trucks, which can exceed 80k lbs in North America. The amount of damage to roads they do compared to average or lightweight cars is mind boggling. [0] https://streets.mn/2016/07/07/chart-of-the-day-vehicle-weight-vs-road-damage-levels/ https://streets.mn/2016/07/07/chart-of-the-day-vehicle-weigh...