4 ms·

Realize that VI was the superior editor, give up on the endeavor, print out the code I had already written for emacs, shred it, then set the shredder unceremoni

Realize that VI was the superior editor, give up on the endeavor, print out the code I had already written for emacs, shred it, then set the shredder unceremoniously on fire. For those that downvote me, worth it.

kQq9oHeAz6wLLS 2y ago
> For those that downvote me, worth it. Nay, quite the opposite; I scrolled down specifically looking for comments like these, because I knew they'd be here. Kind of comforting, really.
- randmeerkat 2y ago
  <3
kunley 2y ago
Strategically thinking, after setting the shredder on fire it will be harder to shred the code of the future emacs clones! :D
- randmeerkat 2y ago
  > Strategically thinking, after setting the shredder on fire it will be harder to shred the code of the future emacs clones! :D The most realistic future is that emacs begins shipping with a self-shredding feature. C-h s
  - kunley 2y ago
    Love it already!
iLemming 2y ago
That just means you have not reached the point of understanding the philosophy of Emacs. Comparing Emacs and Vim with a one-sided perspective like yours is like saying that motorcycles are better than trains. Sure, they both serve the purpose of reaching from point A to point B, but there's a lot more to it than just that. Similarly, Emacs is far more than just a text editor. Vim's model of navigation is an amazing, beautiful, powerful, and pragmatic idea. Have you ever used it anywhere else than Vim/Neovim? You see, the thing is, there's no such thing as a "vim-plugin", and I'm saying this with confidence of a die-hard vimmer. I've tried them all - different ones - IdeaVim for IntelliJ, Sublime Vim plugins, VSCode extensions, etc. All of them are pretty much filled with laughable deficiencies; they are not even shadows of the actual Neovim experience. With one notable exception, and that is the vim-implementation in Emacs. In Emacs, Evil-mode doesn't even feel like an extension, an afterthought; it feels like it's a baked-in, major feature of the editor. More than that, it can do certain things even better than you can do it in Neovim. If someone had built a passenger plane with vertical take-off/landing capability, a mere accidental feature of the aircraft that nobody was even supposed to use, I would still respect the heck out of it because the mere presence of it would be proof of ingenious engineering. If you think that "VI is a superior editor than Emacs", I'm afraid you still have a shallow understanding of both.
- randmeerkat 2y ago
  > If you think that "VI is a superior editor than Emacs", I'm afraid you still have a shallow understanding of both. Thank you for your long and thoughtful prose, so fitting for an emacs user. One day, when you value productivity, might I suggest VI.
  - iLemming 2y ago
    > Thank you for your long and thoughtful prose, so fitting for an emacs user. Are you hinting at the fact that I used Emacs to help me write that? Sure I did. Why wouldn't I use Emacs for writing, if all the tools I need are at my fingertips? I have a thesaurus, spellchecking, Google Translate and search, dictionaries, etymology lookup, word counter, Flesch-Kincaid reading ease tester, ChatGPT, Anthropic and other models, dictation, formatter, and many more. Why would anyone ever exposed to that power willingly part with it? > One day, when you value productivity, might I suggest What point of "I'm saying this with confidence of a die-hard vimmer" was unclear? I already use both Emacs and Vim - they serve different purpose for me. And trust, me if YOU value productivity, one day you may wake up with realization - Emacs actually vims better than Vim.
    - randmeerkat 2y ago
      iLemming you clearly know how to interwebs, well met.
      - iLemming 2y ago
        Look. In our field of software crafting and Computer Science, conflicting ideas and principles frequently arise, especially when balancing competing concerns. We often need to weigh out performance against readability, abstraction and efficiency, flexibility over simplicity, security vs. usability, consistency over pragmatism, etc. Yet, it's relatively rare for ideas (especially good ones) to become completely invalidated or rendered totally obsolete. Because ideas often retain their value in specific contexts. I already told you my take on the idea of Vim and modality, it's a wonderful, beautiful, powerful, and pragmatic model. Now, Emacs builds on the cornerstone of another incredibly powerful idea - the idea of practical notation for lambda calculus, which is known as Lisp. Lisp probably can be crowned as one of the most important ideas in computer science. It's just hard to think of anything more influential than Lisp. Any programmer who dismisses the idea of Lisp based on one concrete implementation of it is misguided. At some point, after many cycles of frustration, amazement, inspiration and awe you will learn to appreciate certain ideas. I'm not selling you Emacs or Vim here - not one concrete implementation of a concept. I'm just trying to tell you - some ideas are worth learning more, before dismissing them as needless or impractical.

kQq9oHeAz6wLLS 2y ago

> For those that downvote me, worth it. Nay, quite the opposite; I scrolled down specifically looking for comments like these, because I knew they'd be here. Kind of comforting, really.

randmeerkat 2y ago
<3

kunley 2y ago

Strategically thinking, after setting the shredder on fire it will be harder to shred the code of the future emacs clones! :D

randmeerkat 2y ago
> Strategically thinking, after setting the shredder on fire it will be harder to shred the code of the future emacs clones! :D The most realistic future is that emacs begins shipping with a self-shredding feature. C-h s
- kunley 2y ago
  Love it already!

iLemming 2y ago

That just means you have not reached the point of understanding the philosophy of Emacs. Comparing Emacs and Vim with a one-sided perspective like yours is like saying that motorcycles are better than trains. Sure, they both serve the purpose of reaching from point A to point B, but there's a lot more to it than just that. Similarly, Emacs is far more than just a text editor. Vim's model of navigation is an amazing, beautiful, powerful, and pragmatic idea. Have you ever used it anywhere else than Vim/Neovim? You see, the thing is, there's no such thing as a "vim-plugin", and I'm saying this with confidence of a die-hard vimmer. I've tried them all - different ones - IdeaVim for IntelliJ, Sublime Vim plugins, VSCode extensions, etc. All of them are pretty much filled with laughable deficiencies; they are not even shadows of the actual Neovim experience. With one notable exception, and that is the vim-implementation in Emacs. In Emacs, Evil-mode doesn't even feel like an extension, an afterthought; it feels like it's a baked-in, major feature of the editor. More than that, it can do certain things even better than you can do it in Neovim. If someone had built a passenger plane with vertical take-off/landing capability, a mere accidental feature of the aircraft that nobody was even supposed to use, I would still respect the heck out of it because the mere presence of it would be proof of ingenious engineering. If you think that "VI is a superior editor than Emacs", I'm afraid you still have a shallow understanding of both.

randmeerkat 2y ago
> If you think that "VI is a superior editor than Emacs", I'm afraid you still have a shallow understanding of both. Thank you for your long and thoughtful prose, so fitting for an emacs user. One day, when you value productivity, might I suggest VI.
- iLemming 2y ago
  > Thank you for your long and thoughtful prose, so fitting for an emacs user. Are you hinting at the fact that I used Emacs to help me write that? Sure I did. Why wouldn't I use Emacs for writing, if all the tools I need are at my fingertips? I have a thesaurus, spellchecking, Google Translate and search, dictionaries, etymology lookup, word counter, Flesch-Kincaid reading ease tester, ChatGPT, Anthropic and other models, dictation, formatter, and many more. Why would anyone ever exposed to that power willingly part with it? > One day, when you value productivity, might I suggest What point of "I'm saying this with confidence of a die-hard vimmer" was unclear? I already use both Emacs and Vim - they serve different purpose for me. And trust, me if YOU value productivity, one day you may wake up with realization - Emacs actually vims better than Vim.
  - randmeerkat 2y ago
    iLemming you clearly know how to interwebs, well met.
    - iLemming 2y ago
      Look. In our field of software crafting and Computer Science, conflicting ideas and principles frequently arise, especially when balancing competing concerns. We often need to weigh out performance against readability, abstraction and efficiency, flexibility over simplicity, security vs. usability, consistency over pragmatism, etc. Yet, it's relatively rare for ideas (especially good ones) to become completely invalidated or rendered totally obsolete. Because ideas often retain their value in specific contexts. I already told you my take on the idea of Vim and modality, it's a wonderful, beautiful, powerful, and pragmatic model. Now, Emacs builds on the cornerstone of another incredibly powerful idea - the idea of practical notation for lambda calculus, which is known as Lisp. Lisp probably can be crowned as one of the most important ideas in computer science. It's just hard to think of anything more influential than Lisp. Any programmer who dismisses the idea of Lisp based on one concrete implementation of it is misguided. At some point, after many cycles of frustration, amazement, inspiration and awe you will learn to appreciate certain ideas. I'm not selling you Emacs or Vim here - not one concrete implementation of a concept. I'm just trying to tell you - some ideas are worth learning more, before dismissing them as needless or impractical.