3 ms·

technical who-is-a-Jew type question, which is thoroughly intertwingled with European history: the Jewish diaspora were only the diaspora after they were kicked

technical who-is-a-Jew type question, which is thoroughly intertwingled with European history: the Jewish diaspora were only the diaspora after they were kicked out of Israel by the Romans (in something like 70AD), and even then, only after they maintained their identity in the diaspora (c.f. the majority of other conquered peoples who did not maintain an independent identity) Before that they were just the Jews, which was more of a nationality than anything else (a nationality that had a covenant with their God, but many nationalities at that time had such). "Sephardic Jew" is a term most used to describe Jews who were kicked out of the Iberian peninsula during the Spanish Inquisition and Reconquista. The Iberian peninsula had had a thorough conquering by Muslims until the euro-christian reconquering, the Reconquista, wherein the last of the Muslims were kicked out, and then the Jews too for good measure, which kicking out occurred at exactly the same time that Columbus sailed for the East (by going west). Other diaspora Jews lived in Muslim lands and are known as Mizrahi Jews (Mizrahi being some form of the word for Egypt which is also the word for East iirc) Was there some distinction (theological or genetic) between Miszrahi Jews and Sephardic Jews and Ashkenazi Jews before they were driven out of Spain? And Columbus was born in Genoa (his house is still there) and so, was he one of these types of Jews or are the different typenames just what we call them today?

sabas_ge 2y ago
>his house is still there It's not really his house, but a reconstruction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Columbus_House https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Columbus_House
ywvcbk 2y ago
> out occurred at exactly the same time that Columbus sailed for the East (by going west). Which is notable why exactly? Surely both Columbus and his investors were hoping to return. Who would give all that money to a descendant of Jewish converts let alone someone who might have been affected by the expulsion decree directly? Columbus might have had Jewish ancestors a few generations back but I don’t think we can conclude anything else based on these findings. Especially not that he or his parents were actually practicing Jews.
p3rls 2y ago
A little etymological sidenote: Sephardic is just the Hebrew word for Spain, whereas Ashkenaz was one of the great grandsons of Noah associated with eastern and central Europe. However, when you see a Jew with the last name Ashkenazi, it's safe to assume they're Sephardi. Why? Because last names for Jews are a more recent historical development and these Jews immigrated to Sephardic territory hundreds of years ago (before the expulsion talked about in this thread) and have fully assimilated into the Sephardic tradition.
- dotancohen 2y ago
  > A little etymological sidenote: Sephardic is just the Hebrew word for Spain, whereas Ashkenaz was one of the great grandsons of Noah associated with eastern and central Europe. Sephardic comes from the name of the land of Sephard. You are correct that in modern Hebrew this name refers to Spain, however it should be noted that Biblical use of the word did not refer to Spain or the Iberian peninsula. It is a modern (in the Jewish sense, e.g. hundreds of years) idea that the word refers to that area - nobody today knows where the area is that the Bible referred to with that name. Ashkenaz, the descendant of Noah, was from present-day-Syria. Thus the term Ashkenazi literally means "From the area of present-day Syria" or more concisely "From the Levant". > However, when you see a Jew with the last name Ashkenazi, it's safe to assume they're Sephardi. Why? Because last names for Jews are a more recent historical development and these Jews immigrated to Sephardic territory hundreds of years ago (before the expulsion talked about in this thread) and have fully assimilated into the Sephardic tradition. Counter anecdote, none of the people named Ashkenazi that I know are Sephardic. One's family is from Turkey, I'm not sure during which period they immigrated to the holy land. It is possible that they came to Turkey from Spain, though the family today does not consider themselves Sephardic. The IDF chief Gabbi Ashkenazi's father is Syrian I believe.
  - p3rls 2y ago
    >Counter anecdote, none of the people named Ashkenazi that I know are Sephardic. One's family is from Turkey, I'm not sure during which period they immigrated to the holy land. It is possible that they came to Turkey from Spain, though the family today does not consider themselves Sephardic. The IDF chief Gabbi Ashkenazi's father is Syrian I believe. It's thought these people were part of the expulsions. Gabbi Ashkenazi, the former IDF chief's father was Bulgarian-- Bulgaria, of course, being Ottoman territory and right next-door to Thessaloniki, a Jewish hotspot of the time would match this model well https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_(surname)#cite_note-1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_(surname)#cite_note-... I haven't been to Hebrew school in a long time but still remember a few things :)
myth_drannon 2y ago
Jewish diaspora existed way before the fall of Jerusalem. Before Jewish-Roman wars, 10% of Roman Empire was Jewish, about 8 million with only 2 million living in Judea. 1 million Jews lived in Persia (probably the ones that stayed when Babylonian captivity ended, since only 50,000 came back with Zerubbabel to build the second temple)

sabas_ge 2y ago

>his house is still there It's not really his house, but a reconstruction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Columbus_House https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Columbus_House

ywvcbk 2y ago

> out occurred at exactly the same time that Columbus sailed for the East (by going west). Which is notable why exactly? Surely both Columbus and his investors were hoping to return. Who would give all that money to a descendant of Jewish converts let alone someone who might have been affected by the expulsion decree directly? Columbus might have had Jewish ancestors a few generations back but I don’t think we can conclude anything else based on these findings. Especially not that he or his parents were actually practicing Jews.

p3rls 2y ago

A little etymological sidenote: Sephardic is just the Hebrew word for Spain, whereas Ashkenaz was one of the great grandsons of Noah associated with eastern and central Europe. However, when you see a Jew with the last name Ashkenazi, it's safe to assume they're Sephardi. Why? Because last names for Jews are a more recent historical development and these Jews immigrated to Sephardic territory hundreds of years ago (before the expulsion talked about in this thread) and have fully assimilated into the Sephardic tradition.

dotancohen 2y ago
> A little etymological sidenote: Sephardic is just the Hebrew word for Spain, whereas Ashkenaz was one of the great grandsons of Noah associated with eastern and central Europe. Sephardic comes from the name of the land of Sephard. You are correct that in modern Hebrew this name refers to Spain, however it should be noted that Biblical use of the word did not refer to Spain or the Iberian peninsula. It is a modern (in the Jewish sense, e.g. hundreds of years) idea that the word refers to that area - nobody today knows where the area is that the Bible referred to with that name. Ashkenaz, the descendant of Noah, was from present-day-Syria. Thus the term Ashkenazi literally means "From the area of present-day Syria" or more concisely "From the Levant". > However, when you see a Jew with the last name Ashkenazi, it's safe to assume they're Sephardi. Why? Because last names for Jews are a more recent historical development and these Jews immigrated to Sephardic territory hundreds of years ago (before the expulsion talked about in this thread) and have fully assimilated into the Sephardic tradition. Counter anecdote, none of the people named Ashkenazi that I know are Sephardic. One's family is from Turkey, I'm not sure during which period they immigrated to the holy land. It is possible that they came to Turkey from Spain, though the family today does not consider themselves Sephardic. The IDF chief Gabbi Ashkenazi's father is Syrian I believe.
- p3rls 2y ago
  >Counter anecdote, none of the people named Ashkenazi that I know are Sephardic. One's family is from Turkey, I'm not sure during which period they immigrated to the holy land. It is possible that they came to Turkey from Spain, though the family today does not consider themselves Sephardic. The IDF chief Gabbi Ashkenazi's father is Syrian I believe. It's thought these people were part of the expulsions. Gabbi Ashkenazi, the former IDF chief's father was Bulgarian-- Bulgaria, of course, being Ottoman territory and right next-door to Thessaloniki, a Jewish hotspot of the time would match this model well https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_(surname)#cite_note-1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_(surname)#cite_note-... I haven't been to Hebrew school in a long time but still remember a few things :)

myth_drannon 2y ago

Jewish diaspora existed way before the fall of Jerusalem. Before Jewish-Roman wars, 10% of Roman Empire was Jewish, about 8 million with only 2 million living in Judea. 1 million Jews lived in Persia (probably the ones that stayed when Babylonian captivity ended, since only 50,000 came back with Zerubbabel to build the second temple)