8 ms·

just consider, if it's so powerful in adjusting his brain, it's probably equally powerful in adjusting anybody's brain, and what if your brain doesn't need adju

just consider, if it's so powerful in adjusting his brain, it's probably equally powerful in adjusting anybody's brain, and what if your brain doesn't need adjustment? there's no reason to think it's "idempotent" so to speak. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idempotence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idempotence is the property of certain operations in mathematics and computer science whereby they can be applied multiple times without changing the result beyond the initial application

yieldcrv 2y ago
everyone considers that, but because they’ll be dead by the time the studies narrow down anything they chose the substance that moves them towards results - or doesn’t everyone can perceive that psychedelic is doing many highly variable things at once and probably shouldn't be recommended, so they just say their experience
- fsckboy 2y ago
  the vast majority of people who try psychedelics are not trying to escape untreatable clinical depression, they are doing it recreationally, for a roller coaster ride which they believe connects them with the Almighty or the Unknowable or the Dao or the All-loving Everpresent or the "insert word that sounds profound" <-- oh, the Profundity! These people are inspired—perhaps by the Almighty, i'm not judging—to preach The Gospel of psychedelics and praise any confirmation of these miracles. I'm simply pointing out that what appears to be the Omnipotence of the Almighty might very well be Selling Your Soul to the Devil for all you know. I'm an atheist, simply using metaphor to get the point across to you. When you talk about how powerful medication is in warping the brain to cure intractable mental problems, that is not at all an endorsement of recreational use. Heroin makes you feel like your mother not only loves you, but makes up for her not loving when she abandoned you as a baby. Is heroin therefore a good idea? (and if you say "that's chemical dependency", you completely miss the point)
  - yieldcrv 2y ago
    what point do you think needed to get across to me? did you think you were replying to someone else? my response was sufficiently broad to factor in non-positive and negative experiences and had nothing to do with the hyperbolic praise of some psychedelic users and that community
    - fsckboy 2y ago
      turns out I don't write my comments just for you. what did you write that you think so clearly showed you understood what I originally said that I wouldn't think other people suffered the same misapprehensions?
  - BigGreenJorts 2y ago
    Idk how many people trying psychedelics for the first time are that interested in the shamanic gods or whatever as much as they want life altered in a fun weird way. In college when people did LSD or mushrooms, they were usually most interested in the visuals.
  - seec 2y ago
    I have tried and use those things (mushrooms, LSD, MDMA) just for fun and I think they are alright if you understand that it is just that: a fun experience, like alcohol or cannabis can be. But I agree that there is a large amount of people taking those things and coming up with large amount of bullshit to justify taking it, in an attempt at pretending that they are more than just fun. It's always people who are very status conscious, hipster like, with narcissistic tendencies who want to impose their viewpoint in a way that makes them feel superior. As far as I'm concerned, I think those things should be legal because not only sourcing them is easy anyway but it also escapes all quality control and regulation even though we still agree to sell much worse things as a society (like tobacco) and that's very incoherent. I don't think any of the new age bullshit theory about healing mental illness (an already loosely defined thing) or whatever else is correct, but what is probably true, is that most of the stuff sold by the pharmaceutical companies is not any better (when it's not much worse) yet it is legal. This is a classic case of capitalism bullshit: if you are having fun, you can't be a productive individual so that's not right, but in the meantime please buy our very similar drugs that's supposedly have the same results, without the fun. One reason the advocates are going overboard with all the claims is probably because the industry is allowed to do the same with much less scrutiny, so it is an attempt at equilibrium, I guess. I doubt they will be successful at fighting fire with fire but it is annoying that it is such a political issue, people should be allowed to take those things if they want to...
throwup238 2y ago
I suspect there’s a lot of self selection at work already. The vast majority of people don’t jump straight into psilocybin and LSD, they progress to them by taking softer drugs like alcohol and cannabis. I think a lot of people who don’t need “adjustment” figure out drugs don’t do much for them and stop before they take the intense psychedelics, or they figure it out at lower doses and stop before they take the intense dose.
- asveikau 2y ago
  Are you saying the claim that psychedelics are effective treatment for depression, PTSD, addiction etc. are simply because those who try it suffer those conditions? What about the part where they say it works effectively? Because I don't think alcohol or cannabis are claimed to be an effective treatment for these conditions in the same way that psychedelics are. The idea that it works seems irrelevant to your conclusion.
  - throwup238 2y ago
    No that’s not what I’m saying.
    - asveikau 2y ago
      Ok. Then I misread.
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
  - fsckboy 2y ago
    sounds like a reasonable hypothesis, that people who are unhappy with their emotional/mental state might be more attracted to altering it, or might experience results they consider more positive. how do our brains decide to do anything, like eat ice cream? "hey, I loved that last time". We know that drugs are not experienced as universally positive because many people who try them in college do not go on use them throughout their adult lives.
whoknw 2y ago
My experience with psychedelics is the following: they shift your perception of things temporarily. The way the "adjustment" works is that you are able to "see" and "touch" experiences you could not before, because they would have annihilated you. They open a door to re-living things and re-processing. Hard for me to see that you would come out of that "broken", if there's nothing to process your trip will be a pleasant high. Which is not to say that psychedelics (LSD, 2C-B, Mescaline, Psilocybin) are not powerful stuff and that they allow for mental states that would be unlivable otherwise (clinically that would be schizophrenia or something like it). I do believe that their therapeutical and recreational benefits do outweigh the drawbacks though. There must be a better way to handle this than Schedule-1'ing the whole bunch.
- jajko 2y ago
  Powerful they are indeed. Depends on general personality, current mental situation, dosage taken, environment and/or people setting up the vibe. That's why I think they should be 100% available but 100% only under professional supervision, who has chemistry and skills to stop the trip gracefully if needed. I've only ever done them (mushrooms) alone, mixed with fresh lemon juice that somehow makes them more intense and shorter-acting (say 2.5h very intense trip I prefer much more than 6h of less intensity). A profound, maybe a bit life-changing experience. Laying down, eyes closed, listening to some mellow shamanic music, I went far and beyond anything I can explain with my words, dissolving senses, myself, and putting it back again afterwards piece by piece. It was pure goodness and positivity, but I can imagine if it was so strong but negative it could have been soul-crushing. Pair it with already fragile personality and the need for professional oversight is always a good idea IMHO. Educate on top. Ignore on your own risk.

yieldcrv 2y ago

everyone considers that, but because they’ll be dead by the time the studies narrow down anything they chose the substance that moves them towards results - or doesn’t everyone can perceive that psychedelic is doing many highly variable things at once and probably shouldn't be recommended, so they just say their experience

fsckboy 2y ago
the vast majority of people who try psychedelics are not trying to escape untreatable clinical depression, they are doing it recreationally, for a roller coaster ride which they believe connects them with the Almighty or the Unknowable or the Dao or the All-loving Everpresent or the "insert word that sounds profound" <-- oh, the Profundity! These people are inspired—perhaps by the Almighty, i'm not judging—to preach The Gospel of psychedelics and praise any confirmation of these miracles. I'm simply pointing out that what appears to be the Omnipotence of the Almighty might very well be Selling Your Soul to the Devil for all you know. I'm an atheist, simply using metaphor to get the point across to you. When you talk about how powerful medication is in warping the brain to cure intractable mental problems, that is not at all an endorsement of recreational use. Heroin makes you feel like your mother not only loves you, but makes up for her not loving when she abandoned you as a baby. Is heroin therefore a good idea? (and if you say "that's chemical dependency", you completely miss the point)
- yieldcrv 2y ago
  what point do you think needed to get across to me? did you think you were replying to someone else? my response was sufficiently broad to factor in non-positive and negative experiences and had nothing to do with the hyperbolic praise of some psychedelic users and that community
  - fsckboy 2y ago
    turns out I don't write my comments just for you. what did you write that you think so clearly showed you understood what I originally said that I wouldn't think other people suffered the same misapprehensions?
- BigGreenJorts 2y ago
  Idk how many people trying psychedelics for the first time are that interested in the shamanic gods or whatever as much as they want life altered in a fun weird way. In college when people did LSD or mushrooms, they were usually most interested in the visuals.
- seec 2y ago
  I have tried and use those things (mushrooms, LSD, MDMA) just for fun and I think they are alright if you understand that it is just that: a fun experience, like alcohol or cannabis can be. But I agree that there is a large amount of people taking those things and coming up with large amount of bullshit to justify taking it, in an attempt at pretending that they are more than just fun. It's always people who are very status conscious, hipster like, with narcissistic tendencies who want to impose their viewpoint in a way that makes them feel superior. As far as I'm concerned, I think those things should be legal because not only sourcing them is easy anyway but it also escapes all quality control and regulation even though we still agree to sell much worse things as a society (like tobacco) and that's very incoherent. I don't think any of the new age bullshit theory about healing mental illness (an already loosely defined thing) or whatever else is correct, but what is probably true, is that most of the stuff sold by the pharmaceutical companies is not any better (when it's not much worse) yet it is legal. This is a classic case of capitalism bullshit: if you are having fun, you can't be a productive individual so that's not right, but in the meantime please buy our very similar drugs that's supposedly have the same results, without the fun. One reason the advocates are going overboard with all the claims is probably because the industry is allowed to do the same with much less scrutiny, so it is an attempt at equilibrium, I guess. I doubt they will be successful at fighting fire with fire but it is annoying that it is such a political issue, people should be allowed to take those things if they want to...

throwup238 2y ago

I suspect there’s a lot of self selection at work already. The vast majority of people don’t jump straight into psilocybin and LSD, they progress to them by taking softer drugs like alcohol and cannabis. I think a lot of people who don’t need “adjustment” figure out drugs don’t do much for them and stop before they take the intense psychedelics, or they figure it out at lower doses and stop before they take the intense dose.

asveikau 2y ago
Are you saying the claim that psychedelics are effective treatment for depression, PTSD, addiction etc. are simply because those who try it suffer those conditions? What about the part where they say it works effectively? Because I don't think alcohol or cannabis are claimed to be an effective treatment for these conditions in the same way that psychedelics are. The idea that it works seems irrelevant to your conclusion.
- throwup238 2y ago
  No that’s not what I’m saying.
  - asveikau 2y ago
    Ok. Then I misread.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
- fsckboy 2y ago
  sounds like a reasonable hypothesis, that people who are unhappy with their emotional/mental state might be more attracted to altering it, or might experience results they consider more positive. how do our brains decide to do anything, like eat ice cream? "hey, I loved that last time". We know that drugs are not experienced as universally positive because many people who try them in college do not go on use them throughout their adult lives.

whoknw 2y ago

My experience with psychedelics is the following: they shift your perception of things temporarily. The way the "adjustment" works is that you are able to "see" and "touch" experiences you could not before, because they would have annihilated you. They open a door to re-living things and re-processing. Hard for me to see that you would come out of that "broken", if there's nothing to process your trip will be a pleasant high. Which is not to say that psychedelics (LSD, 2C-B, Mescaline, Psilocybin) are not powerful stuff and that they allow for mental states that would be unlivable otherwise (clinically that would be schizophrenia or something like it). I do believe that their therapeutical and recreational benefits do outweigh the drawbacks though. There must be a better way to handle this than Schedule-1'ing the whole bunch.

jajko 2y ago
Powerful they are indeed. Depends on general personality, current mental situation, dosage taken, environment and/or people setting up the vibe. That's why I think they should be 100% available but 100% only under professional supervision, who has chemistry and skills to stop the trip gracefully if needed. I've only ever done them (mushrooms) alone, mixed with fresh lemon juice that somehow makes them more intense and shorter-acting (say 2.5h very intense trip I prefer much more than 6h of less intensity). A profound, maybe a bit life-changing experience. Laying down, eyes closed, listening to some mellow shamanic music, I went far and beyond anything I can explain with my words, dissolving senses, myself, and putting it back again afterwards piece by piece. It was pure goodness and positivity, but I can imagine if it was so strong but negative it could have been soul-crushing. Pair it with already fragile personality and the need for professional oversight is always a good idea IMHO. Educate on top. Ignore on your own risk.