3 ms·

It's pretty awesome, but it gets more expensive all the time. First it started as 9€ ticket for 3 months. People loved it, and the government talked about doi

by k__ 2y ago

It's pretty awesome, but it gets more expensive all the time. First it started as 9€ ticket for 3 months. People loved it, and the government talked about doing a permanent 29€ ticket. But now we pay 49€ and it's already planned to become 59€. Really sad, as it isn't affordable for poor people anymore.

lispm 2y ago
> Really sad, as it isn't affordable for poor people anymore. Depends. In my city "poor" people pay less. Just 19 € per month. Pupils don't pay at all. Students pay 29.40 €.
kingkongjaffa 2y ago
It's still super affordable for the average worker using these tickets to commute.
epolanski 2y ago
It's meant to be an alternative to car drivers which are still gonna save over driving even with multiple hikes ahead.
Aachen 2y ago
Remember that it cost a small rent to get this subscription until the 9€ experiment. Flat fee national transport, I don't remember the exact price but it's multiple hundreds a month in both the Netherlands (NS altijd/trein vrij) and Germany (Bahnkarte 100). Even my local subscription to go ~10km between two cities in Germany (NRW) cost 90€ a month until that experiment A nationwide subscription for 60 euros is a steal, even when the long distance trains are excluded
- dunefox 2y ago
  Except for people who simply don't have 60€ a month easily, so they're left out. Also, it will absolutely not stay at 60€, it will become more expensive each year until the local tickets are cheaper again - defeating the whole purpose (if it won't be reverted outright after the next election, which the conservatives will win).
  - Aachen 2y ago
    I'm not saying it shouldn't be free like in Luxembourg, just made the comparison with how it has been for decades until the recent 9€ experiment and now ~60€ subscription. It's already a lot better than it used to be, even if it's not perfect Do you know how it works, actually, if you need to get to work but can't because of the cost? If you can't afford 60€ then you also won't be able to afford a car that costs probably >3x times as much for a barebones old model when you include the necessary insurance, road tax, and fuel. Bürgergeld pays your rent afaik but do they front e.g. costs when you get a job to actually get there until your first paycheck? Can one apply for a public transport subscription in low income situations?
m463 2y ago
It seems the problem might be that pricing is judged independent from externalities. Same with cars and roads. On the other hand, if price was set to zero, you would get weird over-usage patterns (like people using it for housing or other nonsense)
onlyrealcuzzo 2y ago
Doesn't Germany have an extremely large social safety net? Who are these poor people that don't have 49€ for a month of transportation, and how are they possibly surviving without that much money - given the cost of everything else in Germany?
- nisa 2y ago
  Well you'll usally have 563€/month as a single or 506€/month if living with a partner. State pays health insurance and rent (up to a certain limit in size of the flat). In most cities it's further subsidized (25-29€ for the 49€ ticket). If that's enough depends a lot where you live, if you have family or not and your livestyle. You have to pay your energy bills (40-70€/month) and internet / cell-phone (40-50€/month) for yourself. If you are a healthy single it's perfectly fine if you life a simple life. But you can't really put aside any savings.
- lispm 2y ago
  The safety net also provides people with cheaper tickets. At least in my city, the ticket costs much less for people who depend on the social safety net.
- slightwinder 2y ago
  > Doesn't Germany have an extremely large social safety net? Yes, but people will still be greedy and complain about every little thing. > Who are these poor people that don't have 49€ for a month of transportation, and how are they possibly surviving without that much money - given the cost of everything else in Germany? Germany can actually be quite cheap on the basic goods. I mean, it's the country who invented the concept of discount-market and is now spreading Aldi&Lidl to the world. There are also many shops and programs for supporting poor people, selling stuff for lower prices or second hand, and such things. And of course this includes offering a lower price for the ticket.
alwayslikethis 2y ago
For a developed country, 59 EUR is not all that expensive if it helps you get to a job. Having it be too cheap would probably degrade the quality of service for busier routes and make it harder for future projects to pay themselves off.
- dunefox 2y ago
  In a highly developed and wealthy country it should be free.
  - lm28469 2y ago
    > highly developed and wealthy That's not Germany
braiamp 2y ago
> First it started as 9€ ticket for 3 months Someone said in other comment that that 9 ticket was one time only > That was a time limited earlier ticket. "The tickets were valid for June, July, or August 2022. The offer aimed at reducing energy use amid the 2021–2022 global energy crisis." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9-Euro-Ticket https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9-Euro-Ticket
unglaublich 2y ago
€59 is a steal. The goal is to move people to public transport and strengthen economy, not to be a charity to folks that want unlimited (!) transportation but don’t have € 60/month to show for it. Even so, cities subsidize this ticket for the “poor”, so practically their costs are even lower.
RealStickman_ 2y ago
The Swiss ride anywhere ticket is 4000 CHF annually [1]. (330 CHF/month -> 350 EUR/month) That's still less than an average car. A commonly quoted figure is 10'000 CHF per year. [2] [1] https://www.sbb.ch/de/billette-angebote/abos/ga/ga-preise.html https://www.sbb.ch/de/billette-angebote/abos/ga/ga-preise.ht... [2] https://www.comparis.ch/carfinder/autofahren/auto-kosten https://www.comparis.ch/carfinder/autofahren/auto-kosten
- graphenus 2y ago
  I find the comparis estimate an overestimate. Take their VW Polo example. You would definitely not insure it for 1207 Fr a year and an annual service is not 3000 Fr a year. You take their estimate for VW Polo, put numbers a layman folk pays for, and you will get a number around 5000 a year. If you buy a second hand car, then you get a very competitive price to the GA, but also get more flexibility. I am not saying anyone should by a car, quite the contrary, just stating the fact that 4000 Fr/yr is not competitive enough to car.
- dunefox 2y ago
  They earn A LOT more money in Switzerland than in Germany.
- diffeomorphism 2y ago
  The German one is 4550€ https://www.bahn.de/angebot/bahncard/bahncard100 https://www.bahn.de/angebot/bahncard/bahncard100 Quite comparable. The ticket discussed in the article in contrast only includes local transportation but no high speed rail.
slightwinder 2y ago
> First it started as 9€ ticket for 3 months. That was a different Ticket. A highly subsidized time-limited offer. It was never meant to be economical. The 49€ is the economical viable solution, after a long discussion, which still is subsidized. And the 59€ is just the rise to fine-tune the price to actual usage and inflation. > Really sad, as it isn't affordable for poor people anymore. Poor people, as also students, get a lower price. Usually around 19-29€. And many workers can get it through their company, or can get something back from taxes. The amount of people who are really paying the full price themselves is probably not that high.

by k__ 2y ago

lispm 2y ago

> Really sad, as it isn't affordable for poor people anymore. Depends. In my city "poor" people pay less. Just 19 € per month. Pupils don't pay at all. Students pay 29.40 €.

kingkongjaffa 2y ago

It's still super affordable for the average worker using these tickets to commute.

epolanski 2y ago

It's meant to be an alternative to car drivers which are still gonna save over driving even with multiple hikes ahead.

Aachen 2y ago

Remember that it cost a small rent to get this subscription until the 9€ experiment. Flat fee national transport, I don't remember the exact price but it's multiple hundreds a month in both the Netherlands (NS altijd/trein vrij) and Germany (Bahnkarte 100). Even my local subscription to go ~10km between two cities in Germany (NRW) cost 90€ a month until that experiment A nationwide subscription for 60 euros is a steal, even when the long distance trains are excluded

dunefox 2y ago
Except for people who simply don't have 60€ a month easily, so they're left out. Also, it will absolutely not stay at 60€, it will become more expensive each year until the local tickets are cheaper again - defeating the whole purpose (if it won't be reverted outright after the next election, which the conservatives will win).
- Aachen 2y ago
  I'm not saying it shouldn't be free like in Luxembourg, just made the comparison with how it has been for decades until the recent 9€ experiment and now ~60€ subscription. It's already a lot better than it used to be, even if it's not perfect Do you know how it works, actually, if you need to get to work but can't because of the cost? If you can't afford 60€ then you also won't be able to afford a car that costs probably >3x times as much for a barebones old model when you include the necessary insurance, road tax, and fuel. Bürgergeld pays your rent afaik but do they front e.g. costs when you get a job to actually get there until your first paycheck? Can one apply for a public transport subscription in low income situations?

m463 2y ago

It seems the problem might be that pricing is judged independent from externalities. Same with cars and roads. On the other hand, if price was set to zero, you would get weird over-usage patterns (like people using it for housing or other nonsense)

onlyrealcuzzo 2y ago

Doesn't Germany have an extremely large social safety net? Who are these poor people that don't have 49€ for a month of transportation, and how are they possibly surviving without that much money - given the cost of everything else in Germany?

nisa 2y ago
Well you'll usally have 563€/month as a single or 506€/month if living with a partner. State pays health insurance and rent (up to a certain limit in size of the flat). In most cities it's further subsidized (25-29€ for the 49€ ticket). If that's enough depends a lot where you live, if you have family or not and your livestyle. You have to pay your energy bills (40-70€/month) and internet / cell-phone (40-50€/month) for yourself. If you are a healthy single it's perfectly fine if you life a simple life. But you can't really put aside any savings.
lispm 2y ago
The safety net also provides people with cheaper tickets. At least in my city, the ticket costs much less for people who depend on the social safety net.
slightwinder 2y ago
> Doesn't Germany have an extremely large social safety net? Yes, but people will still be greedy and complain about every little thing. > Who are these poor people that don't have 49€ for a month of transportation, and how are they possibly surviving without that much money - given the cost of everything else in Germany? Germany can actually be quite cheap on the basic goods. I mean, it's the country who invented the concept of discount-market and is now spreading Aldi&Lidl to the world. There are also many shops and programs for supporting poor people, selling stuff for lower prices or second hand, and such things. And of course this includes offering a lower price for the ticket.

alwayslikethis 2y ago

For a developed country, 59 EUR is not all that expensive if it helps you get to a job. Having it be too cheap would probably degrade the quality of service for busier routes and make it harder for future projects to pay themselves off.

dunefox 2y ago
In a highly developed and wealthy country it should be free.
- lm28469 2y ago
  > highly developed and wealthy That's not Germany

braiamp 2y ago

> First it started as 9€ ticket for 3 months Someone said in other comment that that 9 ticket was one time only > That was a time limited earlier ticket. "The tickets were valid for June, July, or August 2022. The offer aimed at reducing energy use amid the 2021–2022 global energy crisis." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9-Euro-Ticket https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9-Euro-Ticket

unglaublich 2y ago

€59 is a steal. The goal is to move people to public transport and strengthen economy, not to be a charity to folks that want unlimited (!) transportation but don’t have € 60/month to show for it. Even so, cities subsidize this ticket for the “poor”, so practically their costs are even lower.

RealStickman_ 2y ago

The Swiss ride anywhere ticket is 4000 CHF annually [1]. (330 CHF/month -> 350 EUR/month) That's still less than an average car. A commonly quoted figure is 10'000 CHF per year. [2] [1] https://www.sbb.ch/de/billette-angebote/abos/ga/ga-preise.html https://www.sbb.ch/de/billette-angebote/abos/ga/ga-preise.ht... [2] https://www.comparis.ch/carfinder/autofahren/auto-kosten https://www.comparis.ch/carfinder/autofahren/auto-kosten

graphenus 2y ago
I find the comparis estimate an overestimate. Take their VW Polo example. You would definitely not insure it for 1207 Fr a year and an annual service is not 3000 Fr a year. You take their estimate for VW Polo, put numbers a layman folk pays for, and you will get a number around 5000 a year. If you buy a second hand car, then you get a very competitive price to the GA, but also get more flexibility. I am not saying anyone should by a car, quite the contrary, just stating the fact that 4000 Fr/yr is not competitive enough to car.
dunefox 2y ago
They earn A LOT more money in Switzerland than in Germany.
diffeomorphism 2y ago
The German one is 4550€ https://www.bahn.de/angebot/bahncard/bahncard100 https://www.bahn.de/angebot/bahncard/bahncard100 Quite comparable. The ticket discussed in the article in contrast only includes local transportation but no high speed rail.

slightwinder 2y ago

> First it started as 9€ ticket for 3 months. That was a different Ticket. A highly subsidized time-limited offer. It was never meant to be economical. The 49€ is the economical viable solution, after a long discussion, which still is subsidized. And the 59€ is just the rise to fine-tune the price to actual usage and inflation. > Really sad, as it isn't affordable for poor people anymore. Poor people, as also students, get a lower price. Usually around 19-29€. And many workers can get it through their company, or can get something back from taxes. The amount of people who are really paying the full price themselves is probably not that high.