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Take that with a BIG grain of salt. When SpaceX says they are ready and the FAA is holding them up, it is actually Elon saying they are ready. For example, take

Take that with a BIG grain of salt. When SpaceX says they are ready and the FAA is holding them up, it is actually Elon saying they are ready. For example, take a look at the "Starships are meant to fly" post from September: https://www.spacex.com/updates/ https://www.spacex.com/updates/ As someone who has been following these developments for a while, I can 100% detect Elon's fingerprints all over this post. They are basically completely dismissing government oversight as "unnecessary obstacles to progress". Keep in mind, the area where SpaceX operates Starship is a wildlife sanctuary and was only chosen because it is one of the few undeveloped, southernmost points of the US, which matters because the closer you are to the equator, the more advantage you can take of the Earth's rotational velocity.

decremental 2y ago
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bryanlarsen 2y ago
Every launch pad in the US is a de jure or de facto wildlife sanctuary. Launch pads need a large human keep-out zone. Keeping out humans is great for wildlife. The site was chosen because it was it could launch East over water. The rotation of the earth gives a boost to easterly launches. Boca Chica isn't a great launch location because there's a fairly narrow window of directions it can launch in without overflying land, requiring expensive dog legs to hit different inclinations. They might have been better off with a piece of coastline in Maine, but try and find a piece of Eastern coastline in the US without any development in a 4 mile radius around the site...
- panick21_ 2y ago
  Being so far South is quite nice, gives you quite the performance boost, do you have any analysis on what the dog legs cost compared to more Northern launch sites? Would be interesting to consider. Clearly Florida was the right place to do this for the US in the 1960s.
  - eastbound 2y ago
    Noob question: How comes hurricanes aren’t a problem?
    - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
      > How comes hurricanes aren’t a problem? They're slow and unsurprising. You don't launch in a hurricane.
      - dylan604 2y ago
        You just launch the day before... https://arstechnica.com/space/2024/10/european-mission-departs-earth-to-investigate-an-asteroid-wrecked-by-nasa/ https://arstechnica.com/space/2024/10/european-mission-depar...
    - euroderf 2y ago
      You launch in the eye of the hurricane: "Marooned" m.imdb.com/title/tt0064639/
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > Every launch pad in the US is a de jure or de facto wildlife sanctuary. Launch pads need a large human keep-out zone. Keeping out humans is great for wildlife. Would note that ULA's Vulcan 4 October launch test at Cape Canaveral sprayed debris and presumably propellant around the same area [1]. Vulcan's GEM SRB burns a perchlorate fuel [2]. Perchlorates are toxic [3]. SpaceX isn't taking any crazy risks, particularly relative to the technology risk and potential pay-off, with its IFTs. [1] https://spaceflightnow.com/2024/10/04/ula-launches-second-vulcan-flight-encounters-strap-on-booster-anomaly/ https://spaceflightnow.com/2024/10/04/ula-launches-second-vu... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphite-Epoxy_Motor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphite-Epoxy_Motor [3] https://wwwn.cdc.gov/tsp/ToxFAQs/ToxFAQsDetails.aspx?faqid=893&toxid=181 https://wwwn.cdc.gov/tsp/ToxFAQs/ToxFAQsDetails.aspx?faqid=8...
RecycledEle 2y ago
Boca Chica is not the Southernmost point in the US. One if the Florida Keys is. The main reason that area was a wildlife sanctuary was that nobody wanted it for anything else, so it was a cheap political move to make it "protected." A launch site needs more than latitude. It needs possible launch trajectories that star by going over water to avoid possible debis falling in people or property. Launch sites at higher altitude are better than those at lower altitude.
- jdiez17 2y ago
  True. Updated my comment.
- 7952 2y ago
  Regardless of how it was preserved it is still a valuable habitat for some vulnerable species. And a recreational amenity for people. Nor would the absence of a sanctuary make it automatically ok to kill wildlife or cause pollution.
- chgs 2y ago
  Honolulu is like 100 miles further south than the Florida keys
  - throwawaymaths 2y ago
    Ever tried shipping anything to Hawaii?
- ahazred8ta 2y ago
  Boca Chica at 25°59′49″N is within 50 N/S miles of Cape Sable, Florida 25°7′6″N the southernmost point on the U.S. mainland. It's just about the southernmost place not near a town. -- https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_extreme_points_of_the_United_States https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_extreme_points_of_th...
modeless 2y ago
As recently as last week FAA was saying no launch license before late November, and even if you don't believe SpaceX was ready in August they are clearly ready today. That's what SpaceX complained about, and it got fixed. What more proof do you need that the FAA was the holdup here? https://old.reddit.com/r/SpaceXLounge/comments/1fupkny/the_faa_confirms_that_the_statement_from/ https://old.reddit.com/r/SpaceXLounge/comments/1fupkny/the_f...
- jdiez17 2y ago
  I would guess SpaceX decided to provide everything the FAA/other agencies were asking for and thus their launch license was issued.
  - modeless 2y ago
    SpaceX already provided all the required information. FAA was not waiting for anything from SpaceX. They had inexplicably decided a new environmental review was required for trivial changes to the launch license, and today they reversed that decision in a "written re-evaluation" which as far as I can tell is not based on any new information.
    - jdiez17 2y ago
      So in your opinion, as soon as SpaceX uploads a PDF, the launch license should be issued immediately? P.S.: I wish SpaceX succeeds in bringing down the cost of access to space.
      - kortilla 2y ago
        Stop willfully misinterpreting it. The new 60 day window was something newly added this time just to give other agencies time to complain if they wanted. The FAA did their normal review like they’ve done for every other starship and falcon launch in a timely manner.
    - jdiez17 2y ago
      Okay, I read the FAA's written reevaluation (source: https://www.faa.gov/media/85696 https://www.faa.gov/media/85696). My notes: - SpaceX requested to amend its existing "Programmatic Environmental Assesment" of 2022 to support jettisoning the interstage heat shield and (importantly) using an updating sonic boom model based on flight data. In my opinion, this is the critical point of this assessment. - The impact on endangered wildlife is reassessed based on a report submitted by SpaceX. - There are other points like concerns about waterway closures, and the water discharged by the deluge system. I know there was some controversy about the deluge system and the cleanliness of that water, but according to this report, it's all good. The new evaluation of the sonic boom using flight data shows that SpaceX's original assessment was way off and the intensity and area affected by these sonic booms is much larger in reality. The FAA then goes through a significant amount of rationalizations (with sources, to be fair) to justify that the predictions of the new sonic boom model are still acceptable. The biological resources section also shows that SpaceX underestimated the effects of their launch operations on local wildlife, but some research and monitoring measures are proposed to counteract this. All in all, my opinion is that the FAA is doing everything it can to not be an obstacle. But they do have to analyze this stuff much more rigorously than SpaceX does. That is quite literally their job after all.
0xedd 2y ago
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mlindner 2y ago
> They are basically completely dismissing government oversight as "unnecessary obstacles to progress". SpaceX works quite well with the government and doesn't mind oversight with regards to safety at all. What they don't care for is frivolous oversight/bureaucratic rubber stamping without looking at the intention behind the rules. They also don't like being surprised last minute. All of which happened in the prelude to that update post you referenced. I know a lot of people on this site are from Europe or have European sentiments, but the two places really function quite differently normally. The job of regulators isn't to be obstructionist for the sake of it. It's to create rules that actually improve safety and overall move society forward.
- jdiez17 2y ago
  I understand the US and Europe work differently. Although I am European, I also have a strong dislike of bureaucracy and am sympathetic to advancing society through technological progress. But there should be some oversight. You cannot just let a private company do whatever industrial processes wherever they want in the name of progress.
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > cannot just let a private company do whatever industrial processes wherever they want in the name of progress We don't. The question was why the FAA was enforcing rules that have nothing to do with its remit. There is protocol of regulatory agencies having each others' backs. But it was silly in this situation—it probably calls for reviewing the regime.
  - mlindner 2y ago
    > But there should be some oversight. You cannot just let a private company do whatever industrial processes wherever they want in the name of progress. Then we're in agreement as is SpaceX and even Elon Musk. He's previously stated he's in favor of regulations in general. He just is against an overwhelming overbearing quantity of them that just exist because they've always been there.
  - jaywee 2y ago
fallingknife 2y ago
Have you been to that "wildlife sanctuary." I have. People are driving cars up and down that beach all day. Best thing that could happen to the wildlife is if it were shut down permanently for rocket launches.
- jdiez17 2y ago
  I have. Really enjoyed my time there. But obviously, there are no roads to the places where the endangered species live.
  - steveoscaro 2y ago
    Yeah except for the beach that people drive on all the time.
    - bryanlarsen 2y ago
      And lack of roads is an attraction for all those people riding their quad bikes and other off road vehicles.

decremental 2y ago

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bryanlarsen 2y ago

Every launch pad in the US is a de jure or de facto wildlife sanctuary. Launch pads need a large human keep-out zone. Keeping out humans is great for wildlife. The site was chosen because it was it could launch East over water. The rotation of the earth gives a boost to easterly launches. Boca Chica isn't a great launch location because there's a fairly narrow window of directions it can launch in without overflying land, requiring expensive dog legs to hit different inclinations. They might have been better off with a piece of coastline in Maine, but try and find a piece of Eastern coastline in the US without any development in a 4 mile radius around the site...

panick21_ 2y ago
Being so far South is quite nice, gives you quite the performance boost, do you have any analysis on what the dog legs cost compared to more Northern launch sites? Would be interesting to consider. Clearly Florida was the right place to do this for the US in the 1960s.
- eastbound 2y ago
  Noob question: How comes hurricanes aren’t a problem?
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > How comes hurricanes aren’t a problem? They're slow and unsurprising. You don't launch in a hurricane.
    - dylan604 2y ago
      You just launch the day before... https://arstechnica.com/space/2024/10/european-mission-departs-earth-to-investigate-an-asteroid-wrecked-by-nasa/ https://arstechnica.com/space/2024/10/european-mission-depar...
  - euroderf 2y ago
    You launch in the eye of the hurricane: "Marooned" m.imdb.com/title/tt0064639/
JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> Every launch pad in the US is a de jure or de facto wildlife sanctuary. Launch pads need a large human keep-out zone. Keeping out humans is great for wildlife. Would note that ULA's Vulcan 4 October launch test at Cape Canaveral sprayed debris and presumably propellant around the same area [1]. Vulcan's GEM SRB burns a perchlorate fuel [2]. Perchlorates are toxic [3]. SpaceX isn't taking any crazy risks, particularly relative to the technology risk and potential pay-off, with its IFTs. [1] https://spaceflightnow.com/2024/10/04/ula-launches-second-vulcan-flight-encounters-strap-on-booster-anomaly/ https://spaceflightnow.com/2024/10/04/ula-launches-second-vu... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphite-Epoxy_Motor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphite-Epoxy_Motor [3] https://wwwn.cdc.gov/tsp/ToxFAQs/ToxFAQsDetails.aspx?faqid=893&toxid=181 https://wwwn.cdc.gov/tsp/ToxFAQs/ToxFAQsDetails.aspx?faqid=8...

RecycledEle 2y ago

Boca Chica is not the Southernmost point in the US. One if the Florida Keys is. The main reason that area was a wildlife sanctuary was that nobody wanted it for anything else, so it was a cheap political move to make it "protected." A launch site needs more than latitude. It needs possible launch trajectories that star by going over water to avoid possible debis falling in people or property. Launch sites at higher altitude are better than those at lower altitude.

jdiez17 2y ago
True. Updated my comment.
7952 2y ago
Regardless of how it was preserved it is still a valuable habitat for some vulnerable species. And a recreational amenity for people. Nor would the absence of a sanctuary make it automatically ok to kill wildlife or cause pollution.
chgs 2y ago
Honolulu is like 100 miles further south than the Florida keys
- throwawaymaths 2y ago
  Ever tried shipping anything to Hawaii?
ahazred8ta 2y ago
Boca Chica at 25°59′49″N is within 50 N/S miles of Cape Sable, Florida 25°7′6″N the southernmost point on the U.S. mainland. It's just about the southernmost place not near a town. -- https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_extreme_points_of_the_United_States https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_extreme_points_of_th...

modeless 2y ago

As recently as last week FAA was saying no launch license before late November, and even if you don't believe SpaceX was ready in August they are clearly ready today. That's what SpaceX complained about, and it got fixed. What more proof do you need that the FAA was the holdup here? https://old.reddit.com/r/SpaceXLounge/comments/1fupkny/the_faa_confirms_that_the_statement_from/ https://old.reddit.com/r/SpaceXLounge/comments/1fupkny/the_f...

jdiez17 2y ago
I would guess SpaceX decided to provide everything the FAA/other agencies were asking for and thus their launch license was issued.
- modeless 2y ago
  SpaceX already provided all the required information. FAA was not waiting for anything from SpaceX. They had inexplicably decided a new environmental review was required for trivial changes to the launch license, and today they reversed that decision in a "written re-evaluation" which as far as I can tell is not based on any new information.
  - jdiez17 2y ago
    So in your opinion, as soon as SpaceX uploads a PDF, the launch license should be issued immediately? P.S.: I wish SpaceX succeeds in bringing down the cost of access to space.
    - kortilla 2y ago
      Stop willfully misinterpreting it. The new 60 day window was something newly added this time just to give other agencies time to complain if they wanted. The FAA did their normal review like they’ve done for every other starship and falcon launch in a timely manner.
  - jdiez17 2y ago
    Okay, I read the FAA's written reevaluation (source: https://www.faa.gov/media/85696 https://www.faa.gov/media/85696). My notes: - SpaceX requested to amend its existing "Programmatic Environmental Assesment" of 2022 to support jettisoning the interstage heat shield and (importantly) using an updating sonic boom model based on flight data. In my opinion, this is the critical point of this assessment. - The impact on endangered wildlife is reassessed based on a report submitted by SpaceX. - There are other points like concerns about waterway closures, and the water discharged by the deluge system. I know there was some controversy about the deluge system and the cleanliness of that water, but according to this report, it's all good. The new evaluation of the sonic boom using flight data shows that SpaceX's original assessment was way off and the intensity and area affected by these sonic booms is much larger in reality. The FAA then goes through a significant amount of rationalizations (with sources, to be fair) to justify that the predictions of the new sonic boom model are still acceptable. The biological resources section also shows that SpaceX underestimated the effects of their launch operations on local wildlife, but some research and monitoring measures are proposed to counteract this. All in all, my opinion is that the FAA is doing everything it can to not be an obstacle. But they do have to analyze this stuff much more rigorously than SpaceX does. That is quite literally their job after all.

0xedd 2y ago

[dead]

mlindner 2y ago

> They are basically completely dismissing government oversight as "unnecessary obstacles to progress". SpaceX works quite well with the government and doesn't mind oversight with regards to safety at all. What they don't care for is frivolous oversight/bureaucratic rubber stamping without looking at the intention behind the rules. They also don't like being surprised last minute. All of which happened in the prelude to that update post you referenced. I know a lot of people on this site are from Europe or have European sentiments, but the two places really function quite differently normally. The job of regulators isn't to be obstructionist for the sake of it. It's to create rules that actually improve safety and overall move society forward.

jdiez17 2y ago
I understand the US and Europe work differently. Although I am European, I also have a strong dislike of bureaucracy and am sympathetic to advancing society through technological progress. But there should be some oversight. You cannot just let a private company do whatever industrial processes wherever they want in the name of progress.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > cannot just let a private company do whatever industrial processes wherever they want in the name of progress We don't. The question was why the FAA was enforcing rules that have nothing to do with its remit. There is protocol of regulatory agencies having each others' backs. But it was silly in this situation—it probably calls for reviewing the regime.
- mlindner 2y ago
  > But there should be some oversight. You cannot just let a private company do whatever industrial processes wherever they want in the name of progress. Then we're in agreement as is SpaceX and even Elon Musk. He's previously stated he's in favor of regulations in general. He just is against an overwhelming overbearing quantity of them that just exist because they've always been there.
- jaywee 2y ago

fallingknife 2y ago

Have you been to that "wildlife sanctuary." I have. People are driving cars up and down that beach all day. Best thing that could happen to the wildlife is if it were shut down permanently for rocket launches.

jdiez17 2y ago
I have. Really enjoyed my time there. But obviously, there are no roads to the places where the endangered species live.
- steveoscaro 2y ago
  Yeah except for the beach that people drive on all the time.
  - bryanlarsen 2y ago
    And lack of roads is an attraction for all those people riding their quad bikes and other off road vehicles.