7 ms·

Linux on desktop is a thing. No need to suffer abuse from MS.

by betaby 2y ago

eknkc 2y ago
I try to completely get into Linux desktop at least once a year.. Been more than 20 years I've been doing that. There is always some blocker. Had 2-3 months of exclusive linux use a couple of times but never stuck. My latest main issue btw: Fractional scaling does not work reliably. It just results in different type of fuckery for different apps. Yeah yeah I know wayland x11 this that. No. There are workarounds for different apps, env vars, cmd line flags. Some simply do not cooperate (JetBrains...) It is complete shit show. It is just not worth it. I'm fine with macOS desktop and Linux on servers. And I salute all the masochists running Linux on their desktops.
- boltzmann64 2y ago
  At this point, I am afraid that you will never be able to switch to Linux completely. You know what they say, can't teach old dog new tricks. Linux has it's issues and Windows also has it's own issues. You have to choose which ones you can live with one you cannot. For me, I use a FHD display where 100% scaling looks the best and also it's the small things I cannot live without, like Super+drag to drag/scale windows from anywhere, middle-click paste, powerful POSIX shells (yes, yes I know PowerShell, too old to learn a new shell), etc. But I cannot live with Windows privacy nightmare, mouse-heavy desktop environment. Just do use what you like. Just have fun computing.
  - layer8 2y ago
    > mouse-heavy desktop environment Ironically, Windows still being the best system for keyboard GUI usage is an important reason why I continue using it. With Cygwin for my POSIX shell needs.
- wilsonnb3 2y ago
  I am on Windows for the same reason but KDE finally has fractional scaling that works just as well as Windows. AFAIK, it is the only Linux DE that has it though.
- dartharva 2y ago
  Hasn't fractional scaling always been a problem on Linux? How is it your latest issue, did you never use Hi-DPI screens before?
  - eknkc 2y ago
    I say “latest” in relation to years of issues. I’d probably get around other smaller stuff at the moment. But the fractional scaling simply blocks me from using desktop linux at the moment.
- dsego 2y ago
  It might be easier to buy a 2x resolution display, like the 2.8K Display on the framework laptop, and not have to deal with fractional scaling.
- wetpaws 2y ago
  [dead]
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
bboygravity 2y ago
I want to love Linux, but No. Last time I tried Mint, I had to use a script that runs on startup to configure mouse scrollweel speed?! No. There's probably a long list of these types of experiences ranging from scaling issues on external monitors (if they work at all) to other basic hardware and functionality just not working. The best coders I know use Mac or even Windows while managing FreeBSD on their servers. There are reasons why they don't use Linux or (non-Apple) Unix on their desktop. There are 2 usable desktop OS'es for the masses and those are Windows and Mac. Don't take my word for it, just look at the market. The market has spoken.
- mixmastamyk 2y ago
  Would you like a list of the hours needed to deshittify Windows (and free disk space)? Preventing macos telemetry is another time sink. There’s no free lunch.
  - tavavex 2y ago
    I don't think it's that bad, the duration is certainly not enumerated in hours, at least on Windows. It depends on how high a standard you have, but since other people were long aware of the issue, third-party scripts and software to automate a lot of the tedium exist and work pretty well, anything else can be smoothed out by hand.
    - exe34 2y ago
      so you don't trust ms but you trust a script from some guy in his mom's basement in Russia?
      - tavavex 2y ago
        Any such tools that are worth their salt have their code posted publicly, you can check it yourself. Most of it isn't some groundbreaking stuff, a lot can be stripped out by just changing registry values and other deeply-ingrained settings that would take a long time to find and edit by hand. I also don't see how "trust into Microsoft" factors in here - it's not about trust, we know there's telemetry that can't be disabled through standard settings, and I know there are features I'd like to uproot entirely (like deep OneDrive integration).
echoangle 2y ago
It’s just not ready for a non-technical user. Try to explain to your mother how to properly get NVIDIA graphics cards running. I couldn’t even do it myself. When I installed Debian, the included open source drive was unusable (lagging even when just moving the mouse) so I wanted to get the driver by NVIDIA. You need to mess around with secure boot and even then, I couldn’t log in using Wayland and would just loop back to the login screen because Wayland didn’t start properly. That’s not acceptable for noobs.
- marcodiego 2y ago
  My mom gives a f** about Nvidia.
  - echoangle 2y ago
    Well does she give a f** about a usable computer? Because you have to care about Nvidia to get Linux working if you have a nvidia graphics card.
    - vetinari 2y ago
      My mom doesn't have nvidia gpu. She doesn't need it, so it was not purchased for her. She uses Intel integrated graphics, that's all what she needs. It is perfectly usable computer. Thus, a side effect is no need to install any third-party drivers at all.
      - echoangle 2y ago
        So the response to "Linux isn't ready for mass adoption due to suboptimal driver availability" is "Well it works on one machine I care about"? Good for you, but how does that contradict my point? Is the solution to not just switch everyone over to Linux but also get new graphics cards for everyone who has a nvidia GPU (which is probably the majority)?
        vetinari 2y ago
FragmentShader 2y ago
i'd rather have MS taking 8GB away from my 1TB disk than having Linux taking away at least 6 hours of my life per week cause something broke or cause I have to hoop through the entire internet to install or configure some shit that could've been a single click in windows.
- AyyEye 2y ago
  This isn't 2010 any more. If you're doing any dev work at all native linux will cause way less headaches than WSL/mingw or whatever. Even the old folks in my family are all using linux these days because everything they do is in a browser and it's easier for them than windows. That and microsoft constantly changing things out from under you and reverting settings you thought you picked for your own computer.
  - FragmentShader 2y ago
    > This isn't 2010 any more. I've used Linux Desktop for 2 years in 2018 for IT studies, it was mandatory. We were like 20 students and there was a new Linux-related complaint, timewaste and workaround every day. Nobody got their degree and thought "Y'know what? i'm gonna use linux at home!" I still use Linux for servers nowadays, though. > If you're doing any dev work at all native linux will cause way less headaches than WSL/mingw or whatever. I use visual studio and I don't dev for linux, so I don't have this problem. > Even the old folks in my family are all using linux these days because everything they do is in a browser and it's easier for them than windows. If all you do is use a web browser, you might as well just use a chromebook. > That and microsoft constantly changing things out from under you and reverting settings My settings are never touched, but I agree they sometimes change stuff in a way that bothers me. Like, removing file explorer functionality in W11 and remaking it months later. But they usually make up for it by adding other cool features. Such as native (but slow) unzipping, file explorer tabs, power toys and so on.
    - consteval 2y ago
      > I use visual studio That's not a solution. Visual Studio isn't portable, it's very close to worthless software. You can use VS, my company does too. But the baggage you take with it is pretty extreme. And now we're still maintaining COM stuff (sigh...) > If all you do is use a web browser, you might as well just use a chromebook Ironically, chromebooks have a full Linux environment and you can install graphical applications and whatnot. Also they run android apps. > Such as native (but slow) unzipping, file explorer tabs, power toys and so on Those are "neat" features, but IMO Windows 11 is still not a good desktop environment. KDE has significantly more features, is much more customizable, and also much more consistent in look and feel. Windows USED to at least be polished. Now there's 3 different setting apps and also Computer Management exists and none of them even look like they belong on the same system.
not_your_vase 2y ago
I have been a full-time Linux use for over a decade, running Linux desktop on all my machines. But there is a reason for the year of Linux desktop not coming: it is garbage. Horrible defaults everywhere, every customization is hidden in some totally unexpected place, bad error handling, driver quality all over the place... Learning Linux as a user and developer made my career, but I use it at home just out of spite (I feel a special hate towards MS), and not because it is such a great experience.
nucleardog 2y ago
I just got back from a work trip and conference where, for four days, my laptop couldn't go to sleep and wake back up. Every time my laptop went into my bag, I had to fully shut down the entire system then when I got where I was going spend a bunch of time starting everything back up, getting all my context back up, etc. Good luck trying to search for sleep issues on Linux... I only managed to hunt anything down due to some incredible luck and a couple educated guesses. Apparently some recent systemd update decided to start freezing user.slice during suspend and either there's something wrong with this or there are bugs in the kernel (I'm not going to try and figure out which) that this fails if you use unusual and esoteric things like "kvm" or "nfs". The only way to recover the machine when this happens is a particular Magic SysRq incantation since even switching to a console TTY doesn't work directly. To resolve this in the meantime, you need to add a drop-in conf for systemd-suspend.service to set the `SYSTEMD_SLEEP_FREEZE_USER_SESSIONS` environment variable to revert the change in behaviour. This isn't even getting into all the esoteric bullshit involved in getting everything to a reasonably usable state in the first place. (Never did get full disk encryption working and partial encryption involved a lot of failed starts and reinstalls; Steam wouldn't show anything but a black screen without setting DRI_PRIME; fingerprint scanner required editing some PAM configs and still doesn't _really_ work right; ...) There is no chance in hell that the hours I've invested in Linux don't completely eclipse the hours it takes to deshittify Windows. I'm not switching off, but I'm not also going to be flippant about suggesting other people switch to Linux. It's a project, and not one everyone is willing or capable to take on.

Linux on desktop is a thing. No need to suffer abuse from MS.

by betaby 2y ago

Linux on desktop is a thing. No need to suffer abuse from MS.

I try to completely get into Linux desktop at least once a year.. Been more than 20 years I've been doing that. There is always some blocker. Had 2-3 months of exclusive linux use a couple of times but never stuck. My latest main issue btw: Fractional scaling does not work reliably. It just results in different type of fuckery for different apps. Yeah yeah I know wayland x11 this that. No. There are workarounds for different apps, env vars, cmd line flags. Some simply do not cooperate (JetBrains...) It is complete shit show. It is just not worth it. I'm fine with macOS desktop and Linux on servers. And I salute all the masochists running Linux on their desktops.

boltzmann64 2y ago
At this point, I am afraid that you will never be able to switch to Linux completely. You know what they say, can't teach old dog new tricks. Linux has it's issues and Windows also has it's own issues. You have to choose which ones you can live with one you cannot. For me, I use a FHD display where 100% scaling looks the best and also it's the small things I cannot live without, like Super+drag to drag/scale windows from anywhere, middle-click paste, powerful POSIX shells (yes, yes I know PowerShell, too old to learn a new shell), etc. But I cannot live with Windows privacy nightmare, mouse-heavy desktop environment. Just do use what you like. Just have fun computing.
- layer8 2y ago
  > mouse-heavy desktop environment Ironically, Windows still being the best system for keyboard GUI usage is an important reason why I continue using it. With Cygwin for my POSIX shell needs.
wilsonnb3 2y ago
I am on Windows for the same reason but KDE finally has fractional scaling that works just as well as Windows. AFAIK, it is the only Linux DE that has it though.
dartharva 2y ago
Hasn't fractional scaling always been a problem on Linux? How is it your latest issue, did you never use Hi-DPI screens before?
- eknkc 2y ago
  I say “latest” in relation to years of issues. I’d probably get around other smaller stuff at the moment. But the fractional scaling simply blocks me from using desktop linux at the moment.
dsego 2y ago
It might be easier to buy a 2x resolution display, like the 2.8K Display on the framework laptop, and not have to deal with fractional scaling.
wetpaws 2y ago
[dead]

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

bboygravity 2y ago

I want to love Linux, but No. Last time I tried Mint, I had to use a script that runs on startup to configure mouse scrollweel speed?! No. There's probably a long list of these types of experiences ranging from scaling issues on external monitors (if they work at all) to other basic hardware and functionality just not working. The best coders I know use Mac or even Windows while managing FreeBSD on their servers. There are reasons why they don't use Linux or (non-Apple) Unix on their desktop. There are 2 usable desktop OS'es for the masses and those are Windows and Mac. Don't take my word for it, just look at the market. The market has spoken.

mixmastamyk 2y ago
Would you like a list of the hours needed to deshittify Windows (and free disk space)? Preventing macos telemetry is another time sink. There’s no free lunch.
- tavavex 2y ago
  I don't think it's that bad, the duration is certainly not enumerated in hours, at least on Windows. It depends on how high a standard you have, but since other people were long aware of the issue, third-party scripts and software to automate a lot of the tedium exist and work pretty well, anything else can be smoothed out by hand.
  - exe34 2y ago
    so you don't trust ms but you trust a script from some guy in his mom's basement in Russia?
    - tavavex 2y ago
      Any such tools that are worth their salt have their code posted publicly, you can check it yourself. Most of it isn't some groundbreaking stuff, a lot can be stripped out by just changing registry values and other deeply-ingrained settings that would take a long time to find and edit by hand. I also don't see how "trust into Microsoft" factors in here - it's not about trust, we know there's telemetry that can't be disabled through standard settings, and I know there are features I'd like to uproot entirely (like deep OneDrive integration).

echoangle 2y ago

It’s just not ready for a non-technical user. Try to explain to your mother how to properly get NVIDIA graphics cards running. I couldn’t even do it myself. When I installed Debian, the included open source drive was unusable (lagging even when just moving the mouse) so I wanted to get the driver by NVIDIA. You need to mess around with secure boot and even then, I couldn’t log in using Wayland and would just loop back to the login screen because Wayland didn’t start properly. That’s not acceptable for noobs.

marcodiego 2y ago
My mom gives a f** about Nvidia.
- echoangle 2y ago
  Well does she give a f** about a usable computer? Because you have to care about Nvidia to get Linux working if you have a nvidia graphics card.
  - vetinari 2y ago
    My mom doesn't have nvidia gpu. She doesn't need it, so it was not purchased for her. She uses Intel integrated graphics, that's all what she needs. It is perfectly usable computer. Thus, a side effect is no need to install any third-party drivers at all.
    - echoangle 2y ago
      So the response to "Linux isn't ready for mass adoption due to suboptimal driver availability" is "Well it works on one machine I care about"? Good for you, but how does that contradict my point? Is the solution to not just switch everyone over to Linux but also get new graphics cards for everyone who has a nvidia GPU (which is probably the majority)?
      - vetinari 2y ago

FragmentShader 2y ago

i'd rather have MS taking 8GB away from my 1TB disk than having Linux taking away at least 6 hours of my life per week cause something broke or cause I have to hoop through the entire internet to install or configure some shit that could've been a single click in windows.

AyyEye 2y ago
This isn't 2010 any more. If you're doing any dev work at all native linux will cause way less headaches than WSL/mingw or whatever. Even the old folks in my family are all using linux these days because everything they do is in a browser and it's easier for them than windows. That and microsoft constantly changing things out from under you and reverting settings you thought you picked for your own computer.
- FragmentShader 2y ago
  > This isn't 2010 any more. I've used Linux Desktop for 2 years in 2018 for IT studies, it was mandatory. We were like 20 students and there was a new Linux-related complaint, timewaste and workaround every day. Nobody got their degree and thought "Y'know what? i'm gonna use linux at home!" I still use Linux for servers nowadays, though. > If you're doing any dev work at all native linux will cause way less headaches than WSL/mingw or whatever. I use visual studio and I don't dev for linux, so I don't have this problem. > Even the old folks in my family are all using linux these days because everything they do is in a browser and it's easier for them than windows. If all you do is use a web browser, you might as well just use a chromebook. > That and microsoft constantly changing things out from under you and reverting settings My settings are never touched, but I agree they sometimes change stuff in a way that bothers me. Like, removing file explorer functionality in W11 and remaking it months later. But they usually make up for it by adding other cool features. Such as native (but slow) unzipping, file explorer tabs, power toys and so on.
  - consteval 2y ago
    > I use visual studio That's not a solution. Visual Studio isn't portable, it's very close to worthless software. You can use VS, my company does too. But the baggage you take with it is pretty extreme. And now we're still maintaining COM stuff (sigh...) > If all you do is use a web browser, you might as well just use a chromebook Ironically, chromebooks have a full Linux environment and you can install graphical applications and whatnot. Also they run android apps. > Such as native (but slow) unzipping, file explorer tabs, power toys and so on Those are "neat" features, but IMO Windows 11 is still not a good desktop environment. KDE has significantly more features, is much more customizable, and also much more consistent in look and feel. Windows USED to at least be polished. Now there's 3 different setting apps and also Computer Management exists and none of them even look like they belong on the same system.

not_your_vase 2y ago

I have been a full-time Linux use for over a decade, running Linux desktop on all my machines. But there is a reason for the year of Linux desktop not coming: it is garbage. Horrible defaults everywhere, every customization is hidden in some totally unexpected place, bad error handling, driver quality all over the place... Learning Linux as a user and developer made my career, but I use it at home just out of spite (I feel a special hate towards MS), and not because it is such a great experience.

nucleardog 2y ago

I just got back from a work trip and conference where, for four days, my laptop couldn't go to sleep and wake back up. Every time my laptop went into my bag, I had to fully shut down the entire system then when I got where I was going spend a bunch of time starting everything back up, getting all my context back up, etc. Good luck trying to search for sleep issues on Linux... I only managed to hunt anything down due to some incredible luck and a couple educated guesses. Apparently some recent systemd update decided to start freezing user.slice during suspend and either there's something wrong with this or there are bugs in the kernel (I'm not going to try and figure out which) that this fails if you use unusual and esoteric things like "kvm" or "nfs". The only way to recover the machine when this happens is a particular Magic SysRq incantation since even switching to a console TTY doesn't work directly. To resolve this in the meantime, you need to add a drop-in conf for systemd-suspend.service to set the `SYSTEMD_SLEEP_FREEZE_USER_SESSIONS` environment variable to revert the change in behaviour. This isn't even getting into all the esoteric bullshit involved in getting everything to a reasonably usable state in the first place. (Never did get full disk encryption working and partial encryption involved a lot of failed starts and reinstalls; Steam wouldn't show anything but a black screen without setting DRI_PRIME; fingerprint scanner required editing some PAM configs and still doesn't _really_ work right; ...) There is no chance in hell that the hours I've invested in Linux don't completely eclipse the hours it takes to deshittify Windows. I'm not switching off, but I'm not also going to be flippant about suggesting other people switch to Linux. It's a project, and not one everyone is willing or capable to take on.