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> companies with wfh are driven out of business by those without This is unlikely. Notice the parent post said: >> I don't care about company KPI or efficienc

by noch 2y ago

> companies with wfh are driven out of business by those without This is unlikely. Notice the parent post said: >> I don't care about company KPI or efficiency, I care about my own well-being first and foremost […] So you have a situation where: - Most of your employees think of your company's success and their lifestyle as competing interests. - Most of your employees are focused on optimizing their lifestyle rather than the quality of their work. Essentially these are people who don't actually want to work and would be just as happy or happier on UBI. Now if you have another company whose employees believe in the company's mission, prioritize company success, don't see a necessary trade-off between work and lifestyle, and enjoy working with their teams in person, the latter company will outcompete the former. I recall one of my German managers said: "The difference between workers today and the previous generation is that we lived to work, while they work to live."

varjag 2y ago
It's adorable but my modern German car came plagued by software glitches, from a development team of 6000.
- CalRobert 2y ago
  When your project tracking is a fax machine that’s no surprise.
benterix 2y ago
> Now if you have another company whose employees believe in the company's mission, prioritize company success, don't see a necessary trade-off between work and lifestyle, and enjoy working with their teams in person This is a nice image you've painted but this company doesn't exist except in the minds of some CEOs and startup founders. You know what actually happens? A CEO announces RTO, people are outraged, everybody is looking at their options, those who manage to do it switch jobs immediately, those who can't do it at the next opportunity, the ones who are left are a combination of extroverts who finally can have endless interactions with those who want them and those who don't, and a bunch of disgruntled employees who don't give a fuck about your company because of the way you treated them.
- noch 2y ago
  > You know what actually happens? […] A bunch of disgruntled employees who don't give a fuck about your company because of the way you treated them. I'm sorry you've had bad experiences. I hope you'll heal and be okay or find work that makes you feel appreciated and rewards you. I remember being stealth fired simply because I was never in the office and those who were assumed "he doesn't really work here anyway". Out of sight out of mind, and Zoom couldn't fix that. Colleagues just forgot about me despite the Zoom calls.
  - benterix 2y ago
    > I'm sorry you've had bad experiences. No, actually I haven't. I just have many colleagues who share their feelings with me. In my niche, all best-paid positions are remote only, I basically cooperate with teams from different continents, it's very rewarding. If someone tried to offer me a job forcing me to sit in an open plan office, I would laugh in their face, it seems so ridiculously absurd and unnecessary. The possibility of WFH (for those who want it) is one of the best that happened to the working class since 5-day workweek.
    - noch 2y ago
      > No, actually I haven't. Ah. Well, second hand anecdotes are certainly appreciated. Thanks for sharing. > The possibility of WFH (for those who want it) is one of the best that happened to the working class since 5-day workweek. Does "working class" have a different meaning today? When I entered the job market it meant "blue collar" or manual labourer. You seem to be indicating that you're what used to be called "knowledge worker"? Nonetheless I agree with what you and others have said: wfh is great for optimizing an individual's lifestyle. Such a person, focused on their lifestyle, would probably do just as well if they were paid not to work. As a business owner however, the question is: what is best for the business?
      - pjc50 2y ago
        Anyone who is dependent on labour rather than capital for their income is technically working class. The Marxist classifications don't really work for knowledge workers or professionals.
pjc50 2y ago
Why would you prioritize company success in a world where the company has zero loyalty to you? You trade off your lifestyle in return for no equity and get made redundant at zero notice? Why would you do that? > Most of your employees think of your company's success and their lifestyle as competing interests. There are only so many hours in the day.
- noch 2y ago
  > Why would you prioritize company success in a world […] Exactly. If you don't want to work, or don't care about your work, that's fine. There are other people who care and want to work, and care about their colleagues, and they'll show up or the company will go bust. > Why would you do that? Everyone has to figure that out for themselves. It's the same as asking "why do I work here?"
  - pjc50 2y ago
    I'm thinking of the games industry: https://theconversation.com/the-video-game-industry-is-booming-why-are-there-so-many-layoffs-222685 https://theconversation.com/the-video-game-industry-is-boomi... You have people who care about their colleagues, care about the product, want to work, often crunch voluntarily, the company makes a profit, and they still get laid off. That is .. well, it's sustainable in that you can always find more fresh grads willing to work in games, at the expense of leaving a trail of burned out and disgruntled former employees behind you, but it's also driving unionization.
- intelVISA 2y ago
  I get where they're coming from as excellence does require grinding - the idea of a 3 week bootcamp into mastery (of anything) is a pure sales pitch; on the flip side the grind's a means to an end, usually, and I am doubtful that goal is "become indentured to a company" when they've just built up the skills to found one.
mamonster 2y ago
>I recall one of my German managers said: "The difference between workers today and the previous generation is that we lived to work, while they work to live." I know 2 Boomers who have 8 figure networths and own their own businesses(manual work, think maintenance and installing stuff). They frequently take the opportunity to self congratulate("I worked so hard for 30 years") and complain about younger people("They don't work hard at all, always on their phone during their shift"). Can't say I was surprised when I found out that back when they started their businesses these fields were basically completely unregulated, that the regulations for these areas were in part lobbied by them(and by others like them) once they got off the ground and that both were sitting on juicy government contracts because the guy in charge of the finance department of the canton was in their unit during obligatory military service. And that's just the stuff I am aware of. The point being: Older people really did live to work, but they never mention that their marginal rewards for extra work were much greater in most areas of the economy as compared to today.
- noch 2y ago
  > The point being […] marginal rewards Yes, times change and each generation has to figure out how to succeed in their own unique epoch. I agree.
- zeroonetwothree 2y ago
  Survivorship bias. You will see the same thing with your generation in N years. I expect you’ll be posting here about how young people are lazy now etc
HPsquared 2y ago
I think part of this is because most work today is not strictly "necessary to society". The basic needs of the population are provided by maybe 10% of the workforce now. So of course people see work as less important, because for most jobs at least - it IS less important.
_gabe_ 2y ago
> Essentially these are people who don't actually want to work and would be just as happy or happier on UBI. As one of “these people”, I enjoy my job, but I can recognize the fact that it’s just a job. I’m amazed that you would classify people that don’t center their whole life around their job as people that would be just as happy without a job. I have a lot of other hobbies. I definitely would not be happier if you just took one of them away and gave me money instead.
- noch 2y ago
  > I enjoy my job, but I can recognize the fact that it’s just a job. There's an old saying that "you become what you do". It's fine if your employment is "just a job" for you and you have hobbies you prefer. But don't be amazed that there are people who define themselves by their careers as much as others define themselves by their hobbies. That's who you're competing with.
  - RoyalHenOil 2y ago
    Competing very effectively in many cases. I personally have not seen that workaholic employees get consistent preference in workplaces. Often they get shafted the hardest, particularly in highly competitive workplaces (where, for example, supervisors may undermine their best employees who might threaten their own ambitions). And the hardest workers are also prone to burnout, which often leads to catastrophic career failures: quitting suddenly with no backup plan, changing careers, having a breakdown and ending up nonfunctional for months at a time. I have worked in a variety of workplaces, some that were circling the toilet, some that were leading their industries and nonetheless still shooting higher, and some that thought/hoped they were the latter but just didn't have what it takes. The most consistently successful companies I've worked for have their employees work like tortoises, not hares. They want us to work hard, but sustainably. They discourage all that hypercompetitive nonsense that rewards backstabbers over hard workers, and they encourage us to have a life outside of work to keep us sane. They do this not out of the kindness of their hearts, but because they are insatiably greedy and focused: they want our next 20+ years of productivity and experience.

by noch 2y ago

varjag 2y ago

It's adorable but my modern German car came plagued by software glitches, from a development team of 6000.

CalRobert 2y ago
When your project tracking is a fax machine that’s no surprise.

benterix 2y ago

> Now if you have another company whose employees believe in the company's mission, prioritize company success, don't see a necessary trade-off between work and lifestyle, and enjoy working with their teams in person This is a nice image you've painted but this company doesn't exist except in the minds of some CEOs and startup founders. You know what actually happens? A CEO announces RTO, people are outraged, everybody is looking at their options, those who manage to do it switch jobs immediately, those who can't do it at the next opportunity, the ones who are left are a combination of extroverts who finally can have endless interactions with those who want them and those who don't, and a bunch of disgruntled employees who don't give a fuck about your company because of the way you treated them.

noch 2y ago
> You know what actually happens? […] A bunch of disgruntled employees who don't give a fuck about your company because of the way you treated them. I'm sorry you've had bad experiences. I hope you'll heal and be okay or find work that makes you feel appreciated and rewards you. I remember being stealth fired simply because I was never in the office and those who were assumed "he doesn't really work here anyway". Out of sight out of mind, and Zoom couldn't fix that. Colleagues just forgot about me despite the Zoom calls.
- benterix 2y ago
  > I'm sorry you've had bad experiences. No, actually I haven't. I just have many colleagues who share their feelings with me. In my niche, all best-paid positions are remote only, I basically cooperate with teams from different continents, it's very rewarding. If someone tried to offer me a job forcing me to sit in an open plan office, I would laugh in their face, it seems so ridiculously absurd and unnecessary. The possibility of WFH (for those who want it) is one of the best that happened to the working class since 5-day workweek.
  - noch 2y ago
    > No, actually I haven't. Ah. Well, second hand anecdotes are certainly appreciated. Thanks for sharing. > The possibility of WFH (for those who want it) is one of the best that happened to the working class since 5-day workweek. Does "working class" have a different meaning today? When I entered the job market it meant "blue collar" or manual labourer. You seem to be indicating that you're what used to be called "knowledge worker"? Nonetheless I agree with what you and others have said: wfh is great for optimizing an individual's lifestyle. Such a person, focused on their lifestyle, would probably do just as well if they were paid not to work. As a business owner however, the question is: what is best for the business?
    - pjc50 2y ago
      Anyone who is dependent on labour rather than capital for their income is technically working class. The Marxist classifications don't really work for knowledge workers or professionals.

pjc50 2y ago

Why would you prioritize company success in a world where the company has zero loyalty to you? You trade off your lifestyle in return for no equity and get made redundant at zero notice? Why would you do that? > Most of your employees think of your company's success and their lifestyle as competing interests. There are only so many hours in the day.

noch 2y ago
> Why would you prioritize company success in a world […] Exactly. If you don't want to work, or don't care about your work, that's fine. There are other people who care and want to work, and care about their colleagues, and they'll show up or the company will go bust. > Why would you do that? Everyone has to figure that out for themselves. It's the same as asking "why do I work here?"
- pjc50 2y ago
  I'm thinking of the games industry: https://theconversation.com/the-video-game-industry-is-booming-why-are-there-so-many-layoffs-222685 https://theconversation.com/the-video-game-industry-is-boomi... You have people who care about their colleagues, care about the product, want to work, often crunch voluntarily, the company makes a profit, and they still get laid off. That is .. well, it's sustainable in that you can always find more fresh grads willing to work in games, at the expense of leaving a trail of burned out and disgruntled former employees behind you, but it's also driving unionization.
intelVISA 2y ago
I get where they're coming from as excellence does require grinding - the idea of a 3 week bootcamp into mastery (of anything) is a pure sales pitch; on the flip side the grind's a means to an end, usually, and I am doubtful that goal is "become indentured to a company" when they've just built up the skills to found one.

mamonster 2y ago

>I recall one of my German managers said: "The difference between workers today and the previous generation is that we lived to work, while they work to live." I know 2 Boomers who have 8 figure networths and own their own businesses(manual work, think maintenance and installing stuff). They frequently take the opportunity to self congratulate("I worked so hard for 30 years") and complain about younger people("They don't work hard at all, always on their phone during their shift"). Can't say I was surprised when I found out that back when they started their businesses these fields were basically completely unregulated, that the regulations for these areas were in part lobbied by them(and by others like them) once they got off the ground and that both were sitting on juicy government contracts because the guy in charge of the finance department of the canton was in their unit during obligatory military service. And that's just the stuff I am aware of. The point being: Older people really did live to work, but they never mention that their marginal rewards for extra work were much greater in most areas of the economy as compared to today.

noch 2y ago
> The point being […] marginal rewards Yes, times change and each generation has to figure out how to succeed in their own unique epoch. I agree.
zeroonetwothree 2y ago
Survivorship bias. You will see the same thing with your generation in N years. I expect you’ll be posting here about how young people are lazy now etc

HPsquared 2y ago

I think part of this is because most work today is not strictly "necessary to society". The basic needs of the population are provided by maybe 10% of the workforce now. So of course people see work as less important, because for most jobs at least - it IS less important.

_gabe_ 2y ago

> Essentially these are people who don't actually want to work and would be just as happy or happier on UBI. As one of “these people”, I enjoy my job, but I can recognize the fact that it’s just a job. I’m amazed that you would classify people that don’t center their whole life around their job as people that would be just as happy without a job. I have a lot of other hobbies. I definitely would not be happier if you just took one of them away and gave me money instead.

noch 2y ago
> I enjoy my job, but I can recognize the fact that it’s just a job. There's an old saying that "you become what you do". It's fine if your employment is "just a job" for you and you have hobbies you prefer. But don't be amazed that there are people who define themselves by their careers as much as others define themselves by their hobbies. That's who you're competing with.
- RoyalHenOil 2y ago
  Competing very effectively in many cases. I personally have not seen that workaholic employees get consistent preference in workplaces. Often they get shafted the hardest, particularly in highly competitive workplaces (where, for example, supervisors may undermine their best employees who might threaten their own ambitions). And the hardest workers are also prone to burnout, which often leads to catastrophic career failures: quitting suddenly with no backup plan, changing careers, having a breakdown and ending up nonfunctional for months at a time. I have worked in a variety of workplaces, some that were circling the toilet, some that were leading their industries and nonetheless still shooting higher, and some that thought/hoped they were the latter but just didn't have what it takes. The most consistently successful companies I've worked for have their employees work like tortoises, not hares. They want us to work hard, but sustainably. They discourage all that hypercompetitive nonsense that rewards backstabbers over hard workers, and they encourage us to have a life outside of work to keep us sane. They do this not out of the kindness of their hearts, but because they are insatiably greedy and focused: they want our next 20+ years of productivity and experience.