6 ms·

Some things simply are negative, sure. I think we can all agree that murder is negative on the whole, for example. But you are making a HUGE leap here in assu

Some things simply are negative, sure. I think we can all agree that murder is negative on the whole, for example. But you are making a HUGE leap here in assuming that GLP1 agonists "simply are negative". You have not remotely supported this logical leap. All studies in fact have shown that GLP1 agonists are significantly positive: That they improve health, reduce obesity, reduce all-cause mortality, etc. You are denying observed reality across a large number of double blinded, objective clinical trials.

jajko 2y ago
[flagged]
- borski 2y ago
  It is easy to call taking the medication easy, but nothing about it actually is. Eating right, lifting, trying to be active… all of that on top of the nausea created by the medication itself. Obesity is such a massive epidemic, and shaming people into feeling bad about it has clearly not worked. And that’s before you consider the genetic factors, environmental factors, food deserts, and the other dozen reasons it’s so hard to stay fit for some people. I am genetically gifted in some ways; an athlete’s metabolism was not one of them. I can be extremely disciplined, but the constant vigilance creates this “food noise” in your head that’s hard to explain, but extremely stressful, and causes you to constantly be seeking the next meal. It used to be that every single food I put in my mouth tasted amazing (within reason). Apparently this is not true for everyone, and they have a greater and sharper distinction between “foods that are amazing” and “foods that are just fine”. That distinction exists for me now, and never really did before this medication. There are so many ways it has helped me. My blood labs are perfect, and my liver was definitely not perfect before. My A1C was just on the cusp of prediabetic, at 5.7%. My triglycerides, ALT, AST… all were wayyyyy higher than they should have been. A1C at last test a few months ago was 5.0%, and all the other numbers are well within low-mid range of where they should be. Anyone that looks at someone using GLP-1 medications and thinks they’re “cheating” is a child. You still have to put in the work; you still have to eat right and work out and lift. It just makes it actually possible to do that for the first time in many people’s lives. I don’t know if you’ve ever put on a realistic “fat suit,” but trust me when I say that everything is harder when you’re heavier. A walk around the block is an insane workout if you are 450lbs and haven’t walked in years. It’s not where you should end, but it is a start, and if there is a medication that helps someone start… everyone else can fuck right off. You will never find me shaming someone else or judging them for getting healthy, which is the actual point more than just losing weight. There is one way to get off the medication in the future (or get on the lowest dose, etc): build significant muscle mass. That’s why it’s so important to lift. One common argument I’ve heard against GLP-1 meds is the idea that you’ll have to be on the meds forever. And for some people, maybe even most, that may be true. We don’t know yet. But you know what’s worse than being on a GLP-1 med forever? Being obese forever. We know precisely just how that kills so many of us. But you’re right, we should just go back to the way it was. That seemed to work just fine. :/
  - pclmulqdq 2y ago
    I don't think the point is that GLP-1 inhibitors are "cheating," but that maybe some therapy for addiction (of all kinds) and a shift in focus toward health is a better idea than being on a drug for the rest of your life. So many people regain all the weight they lost after stopping these drugs, so it doesn't make meaningful progress and just covers the problem. At some point, we may find that these drugs cause long-term health problems of their own, too.
    - borski 2y ago
      > I don't think the point is that GLP-1 inhibitors are "cheating," but that maybe some therapy for addiction (of all kinds) and a shift in focus toward health is a better idea than being on a drug for the rest of your life. There is no guarantee that I’ll have to be on it for the rest of my life. But also, I was not “addicted” to food. I spent 18 months changing my lifestyle, nutrition, and exercise habits, and I lost zero weight. I gained health (hikes were no longer a problem, I was fully capable of working out after enough time doing it, etc.), but no weight loss. Yes, I tracked. Yes, I ate below my expenditure. My body holds onto weight. So yeah, I agree with more help for people with addictions, period. I do not see how it is a “replacement” for a medication that is clearly helping people. A lack of therapy was not my problem. > So many people regain all the weight they lost after stopping these drugs, so it doesn't make meaningful progress and just covers the problem. And so many people don’t. Also, we’re learning. Quit cold turkey and yeah, you’ll gain. Taper, and you likely won’t: https://www.pharmacist.com/Pharmacy-News/coming-off-glp-1s-slowly-could-be-key-to-preventing-weight-regain https://www.pharmacist.com/Pharmacy-News/coming-off-glp-1s-s... > At some point, we may find that these drugs cause long-term health problems of their own, too. Or we may not; these drugs have been around since 2005. They’re not new, despite most people having just heard of them now. But we know for a fact that obesity kills. Again: your contention is that instead of using this medication that helped me get healthier over the last 7 months and will help me get healthier yet over the next 7-8, you would have preferred that I “accept” that I have a problem imbued with negative morals (“addiction”) and try my hardest to break it. The thing is, I had already done that for the entirety of my life, remained obese, and would have died of it eventually. Can I be disciplined? Absolutely. I even lost 55 lbs doing keto for 10 months. I ran a startup, and successfully sold it. Discipline wasn’t my issue. I’m not suggesting you should use a GLP-1 med. I’m suggesting you shouldn’t be the arbiter of whether it is helpful or not; it’s effects should be.
- christianqchung 2y ago
  Even if you were completely right, you might as well start shaming Africans for "needing" malaria vaccines. Europe is not America. What you call a self inflicted epidemic is generally accepted as a disastrous food situation because of market forces with no government incentives to foster a culture of healthy eating. And I'm underweight FYI before your European high horse starts lobbing more uncalled for insults.
- cthalupa 2y ago
  > Here I am looking from western Europe at 100% self-inflicted US obesity epidemics and shaking my head in disbelief, what kind of garbage and in what massive quantities you guys consume daily. 26% and climbing in the UK. 19% and climbing in Germany. 17% in France. 11% in Switzerland - and another 30% overweight. 20 years ago America was 32% obese. Do you want to bet that this is a uniquely American thing? That these numbers won't continue to climb in Europe? Hell, we're seeing them climb in Asia - South Korea's obesity rate among men went from 3.26% to 7.3% from 2009 to 2019, though women increased at a much slower rate. > Sure, you can just literally throw money at the problem that is too scary for you to tackle it headfirst, or you can have a wake up call and make your life significantly better from now on and live longer. All is connected - it leads to higher confidence, happier healthier life. The key is to walk the hard path - overcome such a challenge will redefine who you are for the better. Taking pills every day because you can't avoid eating a cookie under stress won't, in contrary. And plenty of people can keep moralizing about how everyone should do it The Proper Way and refusing to understand that while, yes, it is within the power of humans to overcome things with willpower, that there are situations that cause it to require significantly more willpower for some. > Kids don't eat garbage because parents don't give them garbage, because parents don't eat and overeat on garbage. This is a great example. A significant number of people end up obese because they're poor. This seems silly at first, right? Go to the grocery store, buy good whole food, cook, save money! There's problems with this: Many poor people work long hours and have difficulty finding the time or energy to cook. Even when they do, many of the cheapest food items are also the most calorie dense and worst calorie:satiety ratios. So this starts them on a cycle of eating the sort of food that makes you fat. And then the fatter you get, the more feedback cycles you have encouraging you to continue getting fatter - such as the well researched links between obesity and leptin. So they get fat, their kids get fat, and it becomes ever more difficult to stop being fat, all because that's the food they could afford to feed their families with.
  - blacksqr 2y ago
    > A significant number of people end up obese because they're poor... Many poor people work long hours and have difficulty finding the time or energy to cook. Every one of those poor Americans has a vote. One vote per person, same as rich people. Experts have long noted that there are more poor people than rich people. There's nothing stopping them from doing what western Europeans did, vote in leaders who provide better working conditions, better worker protections and better pay, and other policies that reduce poverty. If only there were a drug that suppressed political defeatism.
collingreen 2y ago
I just keep following your comments down the page and giving you upvotes. I think folks using drugs (or meditation or habits or diet or any other thing) to intentionally make their life better is amazing and should be celebrated. If some things are easy for you but not others try to be grateful for yourself without having to be petty or wanting others to be worse off.
tomrod 2y ago
To be clear, I don't think GLP1 agonists are "negative." I think the blend of environmental, food supply, and other factors that led many adults, in the US and elsewhere, to need obesity intervention is the negative. GLP1 agonists are an inherent crutch. Much like if we geoengineered cloud seeding or similar light blocking and fail to reduce CO2, the treatment masks the cause and can lead to worse outcomes globally (even if some folks are better off - and I hope they are!).
- firecall 2y ago
  I don’t agree they are a crutch. However, if they are, then modern life is a sledge hammer that’s constantly breaking your legs. Our (US, UK, Australia and so on) life styles and food chain have created this obesity problem. We are now a sedentary population, and low-nutrient high-calorie food is being made readily available to stressed, tired, overworked, and economically challenged people. When you are stressed and tired, you don’t make the best choices! These drugs are not so much a crutch as they are a rescue helicopter! We still need education though. These drugs might reduce hunger, but they won’t stop you from consuming junk-food. People are used to overeating, and a feeling full isn’t always what’s stopping them from eating! So we do absolutely need to address the root of problem….
  - neuralRiot 2y ago
    >These drugs are not so much a crutch as they are a rescue helicopter! Yes, but once you’re rescued you hopefully try to avoid falling in the same situation that lead you to have to be rescued the first time. This should be a double approach solution, a short term (the drug) and a long term ( lifestyle changes) it can be done with the second only but personal commitment is required. Besides that we, as a society, are not accustomed to “subtractive solutions” they’re simply never considered or pushed by anyone because there’s no money on them. Money is in “creating solutions” not in “eliminating problems”
  - CydeWeys 2y ago
    Amazingly enough, the drugs do address the root of the problem. Snacking / junk food is less appealing on them.

jajko 2y ago

[flagged]

borski 2y ago
It is easy to call taking the medication easy, but nothing about it actually is. Eating right, lifting, trying to be active… all of that on top of the nausea created by the medication itself. Obesity is such a massive epidemic, and shaming people into feeling bad about it has clearly not worked. And that’s before you consider the genetic factors, environmental factors, food deserts, and the other dozen reasons it’s so hard to stay fit for some people. I am genetically gifted in some ways; an athlete’s metabolism was not one of them. I can be extremely disciplined, but the constant vigilance creates this “food noise” in your head that’s hard to explain, but extremely stressful, and causes you to constantly be seeking the next meal. It used to be that every single food I put in my mouth tasted amazing (within reason). Apparently this is not true for everyone, and they have a greater and sharper distinction between “foods that are amazing” and “foods that are just fine”. That distinction exists for me now, and never really did before this medication. There are so many ways it has helped me. My blood labs are perfect, and my liver was definitely not perfect before. My A1C was just on the cusp of prediabetic, at 5.7%. My triglycerides, ALT, AST… all were wayyyyy higher than they should have been. A1C at last test a few months ago was 5.0%, and all the other numbers are well within low-mid range of where they should be. Anyone that looks at someone using GLP-1 medications and thinks they’re “cheating” is a child. You still have to put in the work; you still have to eat right and work out and lift. It just makes it actually possible to do that for the first time in many people’s lives. I don’t know if you’ve ever put on a realistic “fat suit,” but trust me when I say that everything is harder when you’re heavier. A walk around the block is an insane workout if you are 450lbs and haven’t walked in years. It’s not where you should end, but it is a start, and if there is a medication that helps someone start… everyone else can fuck right off. You will never find me shaming someone else or judging them for getting healthy, which is the actual point more than just losing weight. There is one way to get off the medication in the future (or get on the lowest dose, etc): build significant muscle mass. That’s why it’s so important to lift. One common argument I’ve heard against GLP-1 meds is the idea that you’ll have to be on the meds forever. And for some people, maybe even most, that may be true. We don’t know yet. But you know what’s worse than being on a GLP-1 med forever? Being obese forever. We know precisely just how that kills so many of us. But you’re right, we should just go back to the way it was. That seemed to work just fine. :/
- pclmulqdq 2y ago
  I don't think the point is that GLP-1 inhibitors are "cheating," but that maybe some therapy for addiction (of all kinds) and a shift in focus toward health is a better idea than being on a drug for the rest of your life. So many people regain all the weight they lost after stopping these drugs, so it doesn't make meaningful progress and just covers the problem. At some point, we may find that these drugs cause long-term health problems of their own, too.
  - borski 2y ago
    > I don't think the point is that GLP-1 inhibitors are "cheating," but that maybe some therapy for addiction (of all kinds) and a shift in focus toward health is a better idea than being on a drug for the rest of your life. There is no guarantee that I’ll have to be on it for the rest of my life. But also, I was not “addicted” to food. I spent 18 months changing my lifestyle, nutrition, and exercise habits, and I lost zero weight. I gained health (hikes were no longer a problem, I was fully capable of working out after enough time doing it, etc.), but no weight loss. Yes, I tracked. Yes, I ate below my expenditure. My body holds onto weight. So yeah, I agree with more help for people with addictions, period. I do not see how it is a “replacement” for a medication that is clearly helping people. A lack of therapy was not my problem. > So many people regain all the weight they lost after stopping these drugs, so it doesn't make meaningful progress and just covers the problem. And so many people don’t. Also, we’re learning. Quit cold turkey and yeah, you’ll gain. Taper, and you likely won’t: https://www.pharmacist.com/Pharmacy-News/coming-off-glp-1s-slowly-could-be-key-to-preventing-weight-regain https://www.pharmacist.com/Pharmacy-News/coming-off-glp-1s-s... > At some point, we may find that these drugs cause long-term health problems of their own, too. Or we may not; these drugs have been around since 2005. They’re not new, despite most people having just heard of them now. But we know for a fact that obesity kills. Again: your contention is that instead of using this medication that helped me get healthier over the last 7 months and will help me get healthier yet over the next 7-8, you would have preferred that I “accept” that I have a problem imbued with negative morals (“addiction”) and try my hardest to break it. The thing is, I had already done that for the entirety of my life, remained obese, and would have died of it eventually. Can I be disciplined? Absolutely. I even lost 55 lbs doing keto for 10 months. I ran a startup, and successfully sold it. Discipline wasn’t my issue. I’m not suggesting you should use a GLP-1 med. I’m suggesting you shouldn’t be the arbiter of whether it is helpful or not; it’s effects should be.
christianqchung 2y ago
Even if you were completely right, you might as well start shaming Africans for "needing" malaria vaccines. Europe is not America. What you call a self inflicted epidemic is generally accepted as a disastrous food situation because of market forces with no government incentives to foster a culture of healthy eating. And I'm underweight FYI before your European high horse starts lobbing more uncalled for insults.
cthalupa 2y ago
> Here I am looking from western Europe at 100% self-inflicted US obesity epidemics and shaking my head in disbelief, what kind of garbage and in what massive quantities you guys consume daily. 26% and climbing in the UK. 19% and climbing in Germany. 17% in France. 11% in Switzerland - and another 30% overweight. 20 years ago America was 32% obese. Do you want to bet that this is a uniquely American thing? That these numbers won't continue to climb in Europe? Hell, we're seeing them climb in Asia - South Korea's obesity rate among men went from 3.26% to 7.3% from 2009 to 2019, though women increased at a much slower rate. > Sure, you can just literally throw money at the problem that is too scary for you to tackle it headfirst, or you can have a wake up call and make your life significantly better from now on and live longer. All is connected - it leads to higher confidence, happier healthier life. The key is to walk the hard path - overcome such a challenge will redefine who you are for the better. Taking pills every day because you can't avoid eating a cookie under stress won't, in contrary. And plenty of people can keep moralizing about how everyone should do it The Proper Way and refusing to understand that while, yes, it is within the power of humans to overcome things with willpower, that there are situations that cause it to require significantly more willpower for some. > Kids don't eat garbage because parents don't give them garbage, because parents don't eat and overeat on garbage. This is a great example. A significant number of people end up obese because they're poor. This seems silly at first, right? Go to the grocery store, buy good whole food, cook, save money! There's problems with this: Many poor people work long hours and have difficulty finding the time or energy to cook. Even when they do, many of the cheapest food items are also the most calorie dense and worst calorie:satiety ratios. So this starts them on a cycle of eating the sort of food that makes you fat. And then the fatter you get, the more feedback cycles you have encouraging you to continue getting fatter - such as the well researched links between obesity and leptin. So they get fat, their kids get fat, and it becomes ever more difficult to stop being fat, all because that's the food they could afford to feed their families with.
- blacksqr 2y ago
  > A significant number of people end up obese because they're poor... Many poor people work long hours and have difficulty finding the time or energy to cook. Every one of those poor Americans has a vote. One vote per person, same as rich people. Experts have long noted that there are more poor people than rich people. There's nothing stopping them from doing what western Europeans did, vote in leaders who provide better working conditions, better worker protections and better pay, and other policies that reduce poverty. If only there were a drug that suppressed political defeatism.

collingreen 2y ago

I just keep following your comments down the page and giving you upvotes. I think folks using drugs (or meditation or habits or diet or any other thing) to intentionally make their life better is amazing and should be celebrated. If some things are easy for you but not others try to be grateful for yourself without having to be petty or wanting others to be worse off.

tomrod 2y ago

To be clear, I don't think GLP1 agonists are "negative." I think the blend of environmental, food supply, and other factors that led many adults, in the US and elsewhere, to need obesity intervention is the negative. GLP1 agonists are an inherent crutch. Much like if we geoengineered cloud seeding or similar light blocking and fail to reduce CO2, the treatment masks the cause and can lead to worse outcomes globally (even if some folks are better off - and I hope they are!).

firecall 2y ago
I don’t agree they are a crutch. However, if they are, then modern life is a sledge hammer that’s constantly breaking your legs. Our (US, UK, Australia and so on) life styles and food chain have created this obesity problem. We are now a sedentary population, and low-nutrient high-calorie food is being made readily available to stressed, tired, overworked, and economically challenged people. When you are stressed and tired, you don’t make the best choices! These drugs are not so much a crutch as they are a rescue helicopter! We still need education though. These drugs might reduce hunger, but they won’t stop you from consuming junk-food. People are used to overeating, and a feeling full isn’t always what’s stopping them from eating! So we do absolutely need to address the root of problem….
- neuralRiot 2y ago
  >These drugs are not so much a crutch as they are a rescue helicopter! Yes, but once you’re rescued you hopefully try to avoid falling in the same situation that lead you to have to be rescued the first time. This should be a double approach solution, a short term (the drug) and a long term ( lifestyle changes) it can be done with the second only but personal commitment is required. Besides that we, as a society, are not accustomed to “subtractive solutions” they’re simply never considered or pushed by anyone because there’s no money on them. Money is in “creating solutions” not in “eliminating problems”
- CydeWeys 2y ago
  Amazingly enough, the drugs do address the root of the problem. Snacking / junk food is less appealing on them.