4 ms·

One of the things that struck me while I was reading the article (besides the subliminal implication that go-getter graduate students all read Science!) is that

by kghose 14y ago

One of the things that struck me while I was reading the article (besides the subliminal implication that go-getter graduate students all read Science!) is that while I new of all the discoveries mentioned, I didn't know any of the discoverers. I use MRI, but I know the company that makes the machines and the software, not which obscure dude in some corner of the world first published the technique. This is something that is common to all human existence. Enjoy your work and your own accomplishments. Don't worry too much about the adulation from others, especially strangers. It is fleeting, quickly forgotten, and there is that six month rule about adapting to whatever new level of fame/wealth you attain, so that you keep wanting more. PS. Another point, PhDs in the UK and Germany often take 3 years. It's only in the US that the concept of keeping graduate students on leash for more that six years has been honed to an art.

simonbarker87 14y ago
3 years is supposed to be the aim but most in the UK will still take 4 or 5. I've seen many a PhD student forced to experiment right up to the end of year 3 and been told to not start writing up until the start of 4. At which point they are banned from the lab and then given minimal support to complete in a decent timeframe.
mccr8 14y ago
I believe that in the UK students have a master's degree before starting a PhD program (whereas in the US they usually don't), so it isn't quite comparable.
- arethuza 14y ago
  "I believe that in the UK students have a master's degree before starting a PhD program" Definitely not true - unless this has changed recently. I went pretty much directly from a 4 year BSc(Hons) to working as an Research Associate while attempting a PhD.
  - mccr8 14y ago
    Interesting. My only source for this is the book "How to Get a PhD" by Phillips and Pugh.
    - arethuza 14y ago
      From looking around it appears that the research councils now require a Masters degree before they will fund you for a full-time PhD studentship - but that's the funding body, not the entrance requirement for a particular university/department. I'm pretty sure that didn't used to be the case (I considered doing a PhD via a research council studentship before I got offered an RA post). Note my knowledge is probably wildly out of date - my experience in academia was from '89-'95. There might also be other sources of funding that don't have this requirement - unless you are converting from another area and need the Masters to get up to speed I'm not sure what it would achieve. All of the people I knew who did have an MSc before doing a PhD had done a "conversion" MSc.
- simonbarker87 14y ago
  I finished a 3 year electrical engineering undergrad in 2008 and went straight into a PhD (which I then finished just under 3 years later)
- SagelyGuru 14y ago
  Some do and some don't. It used to be that you needed a 1st class degree in the subject from a good university to be taken straight in. With 2(1) or not a top uni, you would be 'encouraged' to do masters first, which worked as an additional filter.
- fpp 14y ago
  It seems now you can go directly from a BS into a PhD program - in the past you had to have a master degree first before you were allowed into PhD programs. Still many programs in the UK require you to have a post-grad / master degree before accepting you into their PhD programs, but you can often start research during your master and expand your master thesis into the PhD (depending on the subject). In the UK most non-teaching/non-resident PhD programs take 2 years (US equiv. 4years). The quickest route to an PhD equivalent is a German Doctorate of Law that you can do after your first German Law exam (min study 4years avg. 5years - equiv. to an U.S. JD) and followed by the second German law exam (additional 2years equiv. to an U.S. Bar). Most do their German Doctorate of Law in less than a year - some in 6 months - between the first and the second law exam - hence the large amount of lawyers in Germany with doctoral degrees.
- excuse-me 14y ago
  Not quiet. To make up for the amazing improvement in teaching and ever rising school exam results over the last 20years we have had to add an extra year to the traditional 3year undergrad course. For some reason we don't understand these increasingly brilliant school students don't seem to have done any calculus for example before arriving for a physics degree. The extra 'honours' year of the degree is normally called a MSci/Meng - to differentiate it from a real MSc masters degree. There is usually an option to stop after 3 years and get a normal BSc. Most research councils require the four year version. The reason British PhDs were nominally 3years is that UK ugrad programs were totally in the nominal subject, there is no minor or required arts/humanities courses - you just do a single subject every lecture. Similarly a PhD traditionally has no taught courses or required extra material, just do the research 24x7. And since the research councils gave you a grant you could live on there was no need to teach/TA more than a nominal amount for experience (and beer money)
arethuza 14y ago
"PhDs in the UK and Germany often take 3 years" Certainly can be done - usual outline I remember from the UK group I worked in was: - 6 months to do background reading in area and decide on a thesis topic - 2 years to do the research - 6 months to write up I knew some people who did this, although most of us were salaried researchers (RAs) who had "day jobs" that aligned to varying degree with our research topic. I saw people taking from 3 to 7 years - the former tending to be research students and the latter RAs who were working on topics not terribly close to what their day job was paying them to do. From what I can tell, UK first degrees tend (at least historically) to be much more focused than US ones - which is good if you are happy with the focus and disastrous if you aren't - this carries onto research degrees, which AFAIK don't usually have any taught component. [NB I bailed after 6 years as an RA to co-found a startup - I was heartily sick of academia by this point]
DanBC 14y ago
> Don't worry too much about the adulation from others, especially strangers. It is fleeting, quickly forgotten, and there is that six month rule about adapting to whatever new level of fame/wealth you attain, so that you keep wanting more. Is this true with the "publish or be forgotten" ethos of academia? Being able to point to a list of published research papers seems to be a useful thing for a resumé - and having the juicy ones sniped by colleagues is going to hurt.

by kghose 14y ago

simonbarker87 14y ago

3 years is supposed to be the aim but most in the UK will still take 4 or 5. I've seen many a PhD student forced to experiment right up to the end of year 3 and been told to not start writing up until the start of 4. At which point they are banned from the lab and then given minimal support to complete in a decent timeframe.

mccr8 14y ago

I believe that in the UK students have a master's degree before starting a PhD program (whereas in the US they usually don't), so it isn't quite comparable.

arethuza 14y ago
"I believe that in the UK students have a master's degree before starting a PhD program" Definitely not true - unless this has changed recently. I went pretty much directly from a 4 year BSc(Hons) to working as an Research Associate while attempting a PhD.
- mccr8 14y ago
  Interesting. My only source for this is the book "How to Get a PhD" by Phillips and Pugh.
  - arethuza 14y ago
    From looking around it appears that the research councils now require a Masters degree before they will fund you for a full-time PhD studentship - but that's the funding body, not the entrance requirement for a particular university/department. I'm pretty sure that didn't used to be the case (I considered doing a PhD via a research council studentship before I got offered an RA post). Note my knowledge is probably wildly out of date - my experience in academia was from '89-'95. There might also be other sources of funding that don't have this requirement - unless you are converting from another area and need the Masters to get up to speed I'm not sure what it would achieve. All of the people I knew who did have an MSc before doing a PhD had done a "conversion" MSc.
simonbarker87 14y ago
I finished a 3 year electrical engineering undergrad in 2008 and went straight into a PhD (which I then finished just under 3 years later)
SagelyGuru 14y ago
Some do and some don't. It used to be that you needed a 1st class degree in the subject from a good university to be taken straight in. With 2(1) or not a top uni, you would be 'encouraged' to do masters first, which worked as an additional filter.
fpp 14y ago
It seems now you can go directly from a BS into a PhD program - in the past you had to have a master degree first before you were allowed into PhD programs. Still many programs in the UK require you to have a post-grad / master degree before accepting you into their PhD programs, but you can often start research during your master and expand your master thesis into the PhD (depending on the subject). In the UK most non-teaching/non-resident PhD programs take 2 years (US equiv. 4years). The quickest route to an PhD equivalent is a German Doctorate of Law that you can do after your first German Law exam (min study 4years avg. 5years - equiv. to an U.S. JD) and followed by the second German law exam (additional 2years equiv. to an U.S. Bar). Most do their German Doctorate of Law in less than a year - some in 6 months - between the first and the second law exam - hence the large amount of lawyers in Germany with doctoral degrees.
excuse-me 14y ago
Not quiet. To make up for the amazing improvement in teaching and ever rising school exam results over the last 20years we have had to add an extra year to the traditional 3year undergrad course. For some reason we don't understand these increasingly brilliant school students don't seem to have done any calculus for example before arriving for a physics degree. The extra 'honours' year of the degree is normally called a MSci/Meng - to differentiate it from a real MSc masters degree. There is usually an option to stop after 3 years and get a normal BSc. Most research councils require the four year version. The reason British PhDs were nominally 3years is that UK ugrad programs were totally in the nominal subject, there is no minor or required arts/humanities courses - you just do a single subject every lecture. Similarly a PhD traditionally has no taught courses or required extra material, just do the research 24x7. And since the research councils gave you a grant you could live on there was no need to teach/TA more than a nominal amount for experience (and beer money)

arethuza 14y ago

"PhDs in the UK and Germany often take 3 years" Certainly can be done - usual outline I remember from the UK group I worked in was: - 6 months to do background reading in area and decide on a thesis topic - 2 years to do the research - 6 months to write up I knew some people who did this, although most of us were salaried researchers (RAs) who had "day jobs" that aligned to varying degree with our research topic. I saw people taking from 3 to 7 years - the former tending to be research students and the latter RAs who were working on topics not terribly close to what their day job was paying them to do. From what I can tell, UK first degrees tend (at least historically) to be much more focused than US ones - which is good if you are happy with the focus and disastrous if you aren't - this carries onto research degrees, which AFAIK don't usually have any taught component. [NB I bailed after 6 years as an RA to co-found a startup - I was heartily sick of academia by this point]

DanBC 14y ago

> Don't worry too much about the adulation from others, especially strangers. It is fleeting, quickly forgotten, and there is that six month rule about adapting to whatever new level of fame/wealth you attain, so that you keep wanting more. Is this true with the "publish or be forgotten" ethos of academia? Being able to point to a list of published research papers seems to be a useful thing for a resumé - and having the juicy ones sniped by colleagues is going to hurt.