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> Will Ozempic users have developed the personal discipline to prevent themselves from relapse without the drug - or will they forever be on a the yo-yo of weig
by Someone1234 2y ago
> Will Ozempic users have developed the personal discipline to prevent themselves from relapse without the drug - or will they forever be on a the yo-yo of weight gain/loss?
Have alcoholics using Naltrexone? Or opioid addicts using Methadone, or smokers using nicotine gum/patches?
See I'm bringing this up to point out the obvious double standard, people suffering from food addiction (i.e. literally the high from food) or binge-eating disorder, who finally have an effective treatment, are treated like it isn't addiction or illness, but a "lifestyle," but if you said this stuff about any other addiction people would call you out and be horrified.
For people mildy overweight or accidentally obese, it is a wildly different illness for people with lifetime problems who have lost/regained weight tens of times and likely know more about nutrition than most healthy-weight people ever will.
- Alupis 2y agoThis is bunk. An actual chemical addiction is not the same as feeling an urge to drink 8 cans of coke a day, or being unable to not buy a bag of chips at the gas station.
- ben_w 2y agoIs it, though? Your entire body and brain is a complex and messy chemical reaction. The opening sentence of the wikipedia article on addiction currently reads: "Addiction is a neuropsychological disorder characterized by a persistent and intense urge to use a drug or engage in a behavior that produces natural reward, despite substantial harm and other negative consequences." The page then lists "eating or food addiction" as examples, with food addiction being its own entire page.
- Alupis 2y ago[flagged]
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- thierrydamiba 2y agoI think the best example here is compare the crimes people commit to get burgers and the crimes they commit to get fent.
- ben_w 2y agoThat would only work if you could get fentanyl for a few dollars at every fast food joint. Or if burgers were a thing you had to go to an illegal dealer for.
- Alupis 2y agoHow about people just try not up-sizing their drink and fries? Or order one burger instead of two or three? These are all choices.
- ben_w 2y agoWhy do you think people persistently, for years, keep choosing something that harmed their bodies? Just because you can do something, doesn't make it a "just" for everyone: • Without any training, one day I decided to put one foot in front of the other and keep going, and managed 42 km, a literal marathon in distance — but it's obvious that, even though I was walking, most people can't do that. • When I was at university, I gamified my diet to be the lowest cost without feeling hungry, and in retrospect that was probably 1100 kcal/day and only even safe because it was limited to term time, and it's really obvious that most people can't do that. • Concersely, when I was on antidepressants and did graze myself into obesity, there simply wasn't a part of my mind aware of what I was doing to myself. I've lost that weight, but the strech marks are still there a decade later.
- Someone1234 2y agoI'm going to change one word of what you posted: > I realize people are trying to make over opiod abuse into some sort of addiction. It makes it easier to not blame the person and absolves them of all personal responsibility for their condition - they just can't help themselves, don't ya know! I change one addiction to another addiction. If people find the above distasteful, I agree, but my question is why do you believe one thing for food addiction and another thing for other addictions?
- croes 2y agoThat doesn't prove it's an addiction. More likely it's listed as one so insurance company pay for the drugs. Addiction treatment gets payed, low self control not. Half Bake- Thur good goes to rehab NSFW https://youtu.be/uUPHlAbAf2I?si=TVVxffFprAtdJyAk https://youtu.be/uUPHlAbAf2I?si=TVVxffFprAtdJyAk
- stirfish 2y agoPeople get addicted to gambling, and you don't put that in your body at all.
- spondylosaurus 2y agoThis is the example I'm shocked more people don't invoke in these discussions. Gambling addiction is indisputably real, and slot machines (or craps tables or the ponies down at the track) don't even have stick a needle in you to get you hooked. Actions and reactions are more than enough. Compulsive overeating relies on the same behavioral/reward mechanisms, with the added bonus of food being something you do physically ingest in the process.
- FabHK 2y agoGambling addiction also has the highest suicide rate among addictions, so definitely serious. The Atlantic had an article recently arguing that allowing sport gambling in the USA was a mistake, imposing huge costs on the most vulnerable.
- coffeebeqn 2y agoIt’s also popular in other forms these days. Wallstreetbets options gambling, most of crypto, the way many people are “trading” these is purely gambling with some bro-astrology. When I was a poor teenager I was gambling online and it is an incredible way to lose money unlike anything. With the click of a button you can throw $100 or $1000 into the void- and you often follow it up until your account is empty. Hard to do with many other substances.
- mort96 2y agoThe fact that people have this idea that "obese == unable to resist drinking 8 cans of coke per day" is honestly part of the problem.
- rixed 2y agoMaybe, but shame has never been a very good cure overall.
- vkou 2y agoShaming people is fantastic at making me feel self-righteous, though, which is the best metric by which I can evaluate treatments and interventions for other people. (When I feel charitable, I can instead wring my hands and hemm and haww about the unknown consequences of people using medication to solve their health problems. I can't outline what exactly those consequences are, but I can certainly hemm and haww.)
- elzbardico 2y agoAs much as we pretend otherwise and rationalize stuff because the greatest sin for our generation is being judgemental, I am pretty sure this is the case in a lot of instances.
- manacit 2y agoGambling? Porn? Sex? These are all things that we acknowledge are possible to be addicted to to that are not substances. Not to mention that coke has caffeine which is a chemical substance just as much as anything. You can pin addiction to anything as a personal weakness, including drugs. Why are some people able to smoke a few cigarettes or do a little bit of cocaine without ever getting addicted, when others are hooked on day one? If there's one thing that's been fun to see as the outcome of GLP-1 drugs, it's that a lot of people seem to have a real problem seeing people better themselves the "easy way".
- mathgeek 2y agoA good way to frame addiction is via perceived rewards. You can be addicted to many things if you look at it as “the person expects a reward for an activity, often errantly”. The worse addictions get into “the reward isn’t even expected with a moment’s clarity, but you do it anyway” territory.
- tharkun__ 2y agoBut you are addicted to a substance in those cases. Sure, you don't take the substance directly. But the things you do have your body produce/release the substance. A dopamine high is a dopamine high. Even though you didn't buy a dopamine pill from a shady dude in the parking lot.
- naijaboiler 2y agoIt doesn’t matter what the actual addiction is, the reward circuitry in the brain is pretty much similar. Addiction is basically highjacking our brain wiring that’s meant to help us expend energy chasing things that we need for survival (food, reproduction), and using it to chase other things
- wtetzner 2y agoSeed oils (used in almost everything these days) contain a lot of linoleic acid, which is a precursor to endocannabinoids, potentially giving you the munchies. If eating gives you the munchies, making you want to eat more, I'd call that a chemical addiction. I think avoiding bad foods is a better solution than reaching for drugs, but if the drugs help break the cycle, it could be beneficial.
- zero-sharp 2y ago>Seed oils (used in almost everything these days) contain a lot of linoleic acid, which is a precursor to endocannabinoids, potentially giving you the munchies. If eating gives you the munchies, making you want to eat more, I'd call that a chemical addiction. If you listen to nutrition gurus, you'll hear claims like "food X contains chemical Y and chemical Y is either itself toxic or metabolizes to something toxic, therefore you shouldn't eat X". I promise you I can find videos where somebody has found something bad about spinach and will try to convince you not to eat it. It's a bad way to reason. Identifying individual biological pathways isn't enough to make (dietary) prescriptions. Often, the metabolites of the food aren't produced in high enough quantities to make a measurable effect (on health, or this case behavior). This kind of thing has to be studied at the level of behavior.
- jdhendrickson 2y agoI find this attitude strange. I am a very physically fit man, I do not know what it is like to walk in the shoes of someone who has an addiction to food, but I do know people eat themselves to death. People deal with debilitating diseases that are directly linked to the amount they are eating. People literally destroy their body and live in the wreckage, and you think that it's not an addiction? If not an addiction what exactly is going on?
- fragmede 2y agoAddiction is this really scary thing I saw on tv about downtown Philadelphia and fentanyl killing people buy that's far away and couldn't happen here. Sure, I have friends who are fat and are unable to stop themselves from drinking 8 cans of coke a day but they're not shooting up with needles and I know them so they can't be this scary kind of person called an addict. Also I know this one girl who's glued to her phone all day and can't do anything else and she's also definitely not an addict. Addiction hits the same part of the brain, no matter if it's chemical, physical, or digital. Just because our culture sees them differently doesn't make it the same underlying problem.
- __blockcipher__ 2y agoIt’s the same thing. Obviously withdrawals and such are different but the core mechanism of disregulated reward processing leading to compulsive behavior engagement is exactly the same.
- seadan83 2y agoThe concern regarding a drug as a crutch is stil valid. Smokers/drinkers may deal with stress by smoking/drinking. After cessation, ways to deal with stress need to be learned from a new. "Addiction" is ambiguous and a term almost better not used. "Addiction" may constitute chemical dependency but can also be largely a set of habits. A set of habits and lifestyle are pretty much the same thing.
- cbsmith 2y ago> The concern regarding a drug as a crutch is stil valid. People with pacemakers can't get off of them either, but it doesn't have the same stigma. Diabetics often need regular insulin injections, but it doesn't have the same stigma. People with high-blood pressure often need regular medication, but it doesn't have the same stigma. It's mostly antidepressants and now Ozempic which have this stigma. > A set of habits and lifestyle are pretty much the same thing. I believe the DSM does not consider them "pretty much the same thing".
- namaria 2y ago'Anew' is an adverb: learn anew. 'Learn from a new' is missing an object.
- CydeWeys 2y agoThe problem is that calling it a "crutch" is already presupposing a negative judgment of it. Use a neutral word; e.g. it is a weight loss aid.
- tomrod 2y agoSome things simply are negative, and masking behind a neutral word makes the neutral word perceived as negative over time. Masking reality is not a good way to work within it nor modify it.
- farrarstan 2y ago[dead]
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- goosedragons 2y agoI think the difference is with food you have to eat it. You don't need alcohol, opioids or nicotine to live. With food it's much easier to fall back into similar or the same pattern as before because you can't avoid it.
- seadan83 2y agoChemical dependency I believe can confuse the brain, where it actually does think you need the drug to live. It can be very hard to avoid booze or cigarettes. They are everywhere. Potentially throughout all of a person's social group. Maybe at home if spouse or parents smoke. As a former smoker, changing diet was easier for me than to change a smoking habit
- tsimionescu 2y agoWhile you're chemically addicted to a substance, yes, the body thinks you literally need it to survive. The point is what happens after you break the chemical addiction, you go through withdrawal, and can function again. The brain stops feeling you need it in that same way after this process. But it's almost impossible for someone who went through alchohol or nicotine or opioid withdrawal to ever consume that again and not relapse into addiction. If the same logic applies to a "food addiction", then discontinuing the drug that helped you go over the initial addiction is going to be almost impossible, since you can't abstain from food.
- seadan83 2y agoWithdrawal can often be both a mental and chemical process. The desire to do something and constantly thinking about it can be just as much habit as it is chemical. We are mostly on the same page I think. To the point though, re: food - it is not all equal. Fast food, ice cream, fried food, candy, chips- it is quite different from cooking your own meals and snacking on things like fruit, veggies and hummus (etc..) Similar to your first point, I can't buy ice cream because I have no self control over it. (I would not say I have a food problem, it would therefore be a lot harder for others I believe) While I agree "you can't abstain from food", it might be a bit overly reductive. Not all food is responsible for 'problem' eating. Similar to near absolutely (or absolutely) avoiding booze/nicotine, there might be similar foods that must be avoided. Which comes back to habits, changes to how a person snacks, when they eat, how long is spent in food prep,more grocery store trips, how they shop in the grocery store (etc)
- nox101 2y agoPeople that move out of the USA generally lose weight. Especially if they move to a country with snaller portions and more walking. People that move to the USA generally gain weight. Evidence that it's lifestyle.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- grepfru_it 2y agoJust needs to be a walking friendly city. You will lose weight in eg NYC or Seattle
- lazyasciiart 2y agoI'm in Seattle, and I can tell you that foreigners don't move here and lose weight.
- NilMostChill 2y agoThat's evidence of environmental factors.
- ta_1138 2y agoAn environment that physically makes you more sedentary as, outside of a couple of cities, many things that would be sensibly done through walking in other countries involve driving. You can easily tell this is the case by seeing where the obesity is less prevalent
- hnburnsy 2y agoMaybe peer and societal influences too?
- maigret 2y agohttps://usa.streetsblog.org/2023/04/14/exactly-how-much-less-america-walks-than-other-countries-in-five-charts https://usa.streetsblog.org/2023/04/14/exactly-how-much-less...
- bitnasty 2y agoActually not true. All addicts develop lifestyles around their addictions. Alcoholics often have many social connections that involve alcohol, what they do for fun involves alcohol, etc. A successful recovery typically involves changing this lifestyle to make the problem behaviors easier to avoid.
- gooosle 2y agoMost of the obese people I know are completely clueless about nutrition and exercise (even though they think they know a lot).