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It is absolutely true. Davyd Arakhhamia, Ukraine’s chief negotiator at Istanbul, said "[Boris] Johnson brought two simple messages to Kyiv. The first is that P

It is absolutely true. Davyd Arakhhamia, Ukraine’s chief negotiator at Istanbul, said "[Boris] Johnson brought two simple messages to Kyiv. The first is that Putin is a war criminal; he should be pressured, not negotiated with. And the second is that even if Ukraine is ready to sign some agreements on guarantees with Putin, they [the NATO powers] are not" We've all been drip-fed by the military industrial complex since at least 9/11 that war is necessary. Look what it got us- millions dead in Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Libya, Yemen, Ukraine, Israel, Gaza. Not to mention our countless soldiers killed and injured on the line of duty. It's evil, no I will not forget Dick Cheney.

aguaviva 2y ago
Except that's not a direct quote from Arakhmiya - now is it? Rather, it's a characterization of what he said -- whose original provenance seems to be difficult to track down, and there are conflicting versions available, which of course got copy-pasted all over in both left- and right-wing outlets (as well as by the Kremlin of course). But both Johnson and Arakhmiya have strenuously denied this characterization in any case, when directly asked about the topic: “This is nothing more than nonsense and Russian propaganda,” Johnson said in an interview with the Times. His words were confirmed by the head of the pro-presidential Servant of the People party faction, David Arakhamia, who headed the Ukrainian delegation at the Ukraine-Russia talks in Istanbul in March 2022. ... Arakhamia denied that the Ukrainian delegation was allegedly ready to sign such a document, and Johnson stopped Kyiv. And yet somehow you've come to believe that the first characterization you came across was "absolutely true". Why is that? It's evil, no I will not forget Dick Cheney. You can build an anti-shrine to him on your bedroom wall, and throw darts at it every night if you want to. The unfortunate point here is that it seems you've allowed him to become a bogeyman, just like the big bad old MIC. And when I'm saying "forget about him", I don't mean in the literal sense. Of course we have to remember assholes like Cheney and the evil they did, what Eisenhower said way back when and all that. But the bigger point is: that doesn't mean we have to let these ghosts not only dictate our narratives, but completely override our understanding of events in the present moment. More to the point -- if you'd like to yourself a huge favor, and just forget about all these good/evil narratives altogether. Instead focus on the facts of who said what, and when, and what really happened as a result. Which in the case of the current Ukraine war, really aren't that complicated or hard to figure out.
- cynicalpeace 2y ago
  Original provenance was Ukrainska Pravda. https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/articles/2022/05/5/7344096/ https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/articles/2022/05/5/7344096/ At some point a name was put to the anonymous source, could be one of the many journalists who have investigated this quote, as you yourself admit there are lots of sources on this topic. But that single quote aside, it's not like they're saying this in secret. Even Victoria Nuland and Foreign Affairs said some version of the same thing. Nuland says the West didn't want to basically disarm Ukraine, and Foreign Affairs did an investigation of the negotiations (Ukrainska Pravda's investigation was better) and said the West didn't want to provide security guarantees to Ukraine. And they all say it out loud that they don't want give an inch. Good/evil moral compass is enormously important, especially when faced with war. It's precisely this flippant view towards morality that leads normal people to justify horrific acts of violence. Murder, war, invasion bad. Family, health, love, business good. It really is that simple and the moment you stray from that, you stray towards everything we want to avoid. I understand there are moments you MUST go to war. If I were Ukrainian I would be 100% on the war effort. But I'm not Ukrainian. I'm American. Russia didn't attack America and I have a say in where my tax dollars go.
  - aguaviva 2y ago
    Right - the UP quote names "one of Zelenskyy's close associates", not Arakhmiya. Since Arakhmiya is explicitly quoted elsewhere in the article (and the different UP article it links to as a source for those quotes, in Ukrainian, does not include anything resembling the quote in question) -- that strongly suggests it was never his characterization in the first place. All I can say at this point, and which I feel I'm entitled to, is: "Now let that sink in". (Can't delve into Nuland angle right now, maybe another day).
  - aguaviva 2y ago
    The Foreign Affairs investigation (probably the most detailed of any) suggested multiple reasons for the breakdown of the process. For the purpose of this thread, the main takeaway is that it squarely rejects the "sabotage" theory, stating: The claim that the West forced Ukraine to back out of the talks with Russia is baseless. https://archive.ph/lSQPr https://archive.ph/lSQPr

aguaviva 2y ago

Except that's not a direct quote from Arakhmiya - now is it? Rather, it's a characterization of what he said -- whose original provenance seems to be difficult to track down, and there are conflicting versions available, which of course got copy-pasted all over in both left- and right-wing outlets (as well as by the Kremlin of course). But both Johnson and Arakhmiya have strenuously denied this characterization in any case, when directly asked about the topic: “This is nothing more than nonsense and Russian propaganda,” Johnson said in an interview with the Times. His words were confirmed by the head of the pro-presidential Servant of the People party faction, David Arakhamia, who headed the Ukrainian delegation at the Ukraine-Russia talks in Istanbul in March 2022. ... Arakhamia denied that the Ukrainian delegation was allegedly ready to sign such a document, and Johnson stopped Kyiv. And yet somehow you've come to believe that the first characterization you came across was "absolutely true". Why is that? It's evil, no I will not forget Dick Cheney. You can build an anti-shrine to him on your bedroom wall, and throw darts at it every night if you want to. The unfortunate point here is that it seems you've allowed him to become a bogeyman, just like the big bad old MIC. And when I'm saying "forget about him", I don't mean in the literal sense. Of course we have to remember assholes like Cheney and the evil they did, what Eisenhower said way back when and all that. But the bigger point is: that doesn't mean we have to let these ghosts not only dictate our narratives, but completely override our understanding of events in the present moment. More to the point -- if you'd like to yourself a huge favor, and just forget about all these good/evil narratives altogether. Instead focus on the facts of who said what, and when, and what really happened as a result. Which in the case of the current Ukraine war, really aren't that complicated or hard to figure out.

cynicalpeace 2y ago
Original provenance was Ukrainska Pravda. https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/articles/2022/05/5/7344096/ https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/articles/2022/05/5/7344096/ At some point a name was put to the anonymous source, could be one of the many journalists who have investigated this quote, as you yourself admit there are lots of sources on this topic. But that single quote aside, it's not like they're saying this in secret. Even Victoria Nuland and Foreign Affairs said some version of the same thing. Nuland says the West didn't want to basically disarm Ukraine, and Foreign Affairs did an investigation of the negotiations (Ukrainska Pravda's investigation was better) and said the West didn't want to provide security guarantees to Ukraine. And they all say it out loud that they don't want give an inch. Good/evil moral compass is enormously important, especially when faced with war. It's precisely this flippant view towards morality that leads normal people to justify horrific acts of violence. Murder, war, invasion bad. Family, health, love, business good. It really is that simple and the moment you stray from that, you stray towards everything we want to avoid. I understand there are moments you MUST go to war. If I were Ukrainian I would be 100% on the war effort. But I'm not Ukrainian. I'm American. Russia didn't attack America and I have a say in where my tax dollars go.
- aguaviva 2y ago
  Right - the UP quote names "one of Zelenskyy's close associates", not Arakhmiya. Since Arakhmiya is explicitly quoted elsewhere in the article (and the different UP article it links to as a source for those quotes, in Ukrainian, does not include anything resembling the quote in question) -- that strongly suggests it was never his characterization in the first place. All I can say at this point, and which I feel I'm entitled to, is: "Now let that sink in". (Can't delve into Nuland angle right now, maybe another day).
- aguaviva 2y ago
  The Foreign Affairs investigation (probably the most detailed of any) suggested multiple reasons for the breakdown of the process. For the purpose of this thread, the main takeaway is that it squarely rejects the "sabotage" theory, stating: The claim that the West forced Ukraine to back out of the talks with Russia is baseless. https://archive.ph/lSQPr https://archive.ph/lSQPr