6 ms·

Has there ever been a case where something like #2 has happened? Don't think you need to worry about that one.

by mritchie712 2y ago

dustingetz 2y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_fluoridation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_fluoridation
- fourside 2y ago
  Not sure that’s apples to apples. Fluoride is a mineral. IIRC, ozempic is closer to a hormone.
  - Jerrrrrrry 2y ago
    >Fluoride is a mineral. Even noble gases can be psychoactive.
    - syndicatedjelly 2y ago
      Fluoride and fluorine are not the same thing, and fluorine is not a noble gas
      - Jerrrrrrry 2y ago
        The implication to be thwarted was of "mineral" vs "hormone"; the distinction was moot, as there is no such real thing as a "drug" - all things are chemicals, and can be psychoactive to humans in either their presence or absence. Most notably (in the context of un-intuitiveness), is Xenon - it is't even a chemical, but an element - a noble one, which is almost nonsensical given most's flawed intuition. > fluorine is not a noble gas Correct, although ironically it wasn't much use in direct chemical-warfare, it was used more as a pre-cursor to enrich Uranium.
        syndicatedjelly 2y ago
        > Most notably (in the context of un-intuitiveness), is Xenon - it is't even a chemical, but an element - a noble one, which is almost nonsensical given most's flawed intuition. …what? I haven’t the faintest clue what you’re talking about. I don’t think you know what the word “psychoactive” means, either. By your definition, water is psychoactive too. Is that what you’re suggesting?
        Jerrrrrrry 2y ago
        [dead]
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
- logicchains 2y ago
  https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/oct/04/fluoridation-water-epa-risk-assessement https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/oct/04/fluoridation...
  - _yb2s 2y ago
    I am an academic scientist and generally a careful and skeptical person, but having read the peer reviewed literature myself, I think there is enough evidence to be concerned that water fluoridation at the levels currently used could possibly be causing brain damage or developmental issues. The evidence isn't that strong, but it is strong enough that it would be unethical to continue the practice, or to claim that there is nothing to worry about. The dose/response curves seem to show measurable levels of cognitive defects occurring right around, or just above typical target levels for fluoridation. Personally, I give my kid water with the flouride filtered out via RO, but will still use topical flouride, e.g. toothpaste and treatments applied by a dentist. I hate how issues like this are politicized... if I raise this issue anywhere, including on here I expect to be attacked for being a "conspiracy theorist" and "like an anti-vaxxer" etc. There is something really wrong when you aren't allowed to even talk about both sides of an issue- especially if, like in my case, I have a doctorate in the life sciences and am qualified to have my own informed scientific opinion based on the evidence.
    - bee_rider 2y ago
      Is that an opinion formed on something inside your domain of expertise?
      - _yb2s 2y ago
        It is not in any way related to my own area of research, I looked into it as a parent wondering what would be best for my own kid. However, there is not really that much research out there on this- so I was able to review much of the primary research, as well as various review articles that try to consider all of it together. How would you define "domain of expertise"? Reviewing literature from other fields I don't research myself and forming an opinion on how it applies to my research is part of my job and something I do almost every day. I am even also called upon to peer review articles and grant proposals that are not within my direct field of research, as is general practice to get "outside opinions." In cases like this, I am able to be familiar with basically everything published on the issue. However an actual researcher in a specific field will have additional knowledge and opinions from firsthand experience, that cannot be found in literature. In general, I think it is okay to have your own opinion on something even if you aren't e.g. a professional whose whole life is focused exactly on that one issue. No formal training, credentials, or firsthand experience are necessarily required to have an informed opinion. However, you still have the burden of making sure you really understand the issue deeply - which is probably something like 100x the effort most people think it would be. Anyone can do that if they take the time to do so. I wish more people would. In any case, this was a few years back when I looked into it, and it seems like these concerns have become more mainstream and less controversial in the last few years, e.g. https://ntp.niehs.nih.gov/publications/monographs/mgraph08 https://ntp.niehs.nih.gov/publications/monographs/mgraph08
rmellow 2y ago
Adding iodine to salt has greatly increased the population's IQ in countries that have adopted it. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15734706/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15734706/
crooked-v 2y ago
Sure: the popularization of coffee across western Europe in the 1600s and 1700s, and the way it replaced beer as the most common daytime casual drink. Much of the population went from spending all day mildly intoxicated to being mostly sober and with a caffeine pick-me-up.
- positr0n 2y ago
  Do you know if it was really most the population? Or just most of the intellectuals, nobility, bourgeois, etc. Were peasants coffee drinkers?
dtquad 2y ago
There are some evidence that Ozempic/Wegovy actually cures more addictions than just food addiction. >The weight-loss jabs have apparently helped people kick habits from smoking to shopping, although scientists remain wary about recommending it as an addiction treatment https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2023/05/ozempic-addictive-behavior-drinking-smoking/674098/ https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2023/05/ozempic-a...
- Ferret7446 2y ago
  Which makes perfect sense. All addictions are basically* the same thing, an outlet for negative emotion. The "drug" of choice, whether that be food, video games, shopping, etc. is fairly superficial. Often, people who "kick" one addiction simply switch over to another addiction.
anigbrowl 2y ago
Some athletes (especially weightlifters) use Tadalafil, an erectile dysfunction drug, because it also promotes bone density and muscle growth while having few observable side effects. This isn't really surprising, it's basically just a mild vasodilator. A better known drug in the same class Sildenafil (aka Viagra) is less mild, and associated with retinal damage if overused.

Has there ever been a case where something like #2 has happened? Don't think you need to worry about that one.

dustingetz 2y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_fluoridation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_fluoridation

fourside 2y ago
Not sure that’s apples to apples. Fluoride is a mineral. IIRC, ozempic is closer to a hormone.
- Jerrrrrrry 2y ago
  >Fluoride is a mineral. Even noble gases can be psychoactive.
  - syndicatedjelly 2y ago
    Fluoride and fluorine are not the same thing, and fluorine is not a noble gas
    - Jerrrrrrry 2y ago
      The implication to be thwarted was of "mineral" vs "hormone"; the distinction was moot, as there is no such real thing as a "drug" - all things are chemicals, and can be psychoactive to humans in either their presence or absence. Most notably (in the context of un-intuitiveness), is Xenon - it is't even a chemical, but an element - a noble one, which is almost nonsensical given most's flawed intuition. > fluorine is not a noble gas Correct, although ironically it wasn't much use in direct chemical-warfare, it was used more as a pre-cursor to enrich Uranium.
      - syndicatedjelly 2y ago
        > Most notably (in the context of un-intuitiveness), is Xenon - it is't even a chemical, but an element - a noble one, which is almost nonsensical given most's flawed intuition. …what? I haven’t the faintest clue what you’re talking about. I don’t think you know what the word “psychoactive” means, either. By your definition, water is psychoactive too. Is that what you’re suggesting?
        Jerrrrrrry 2y ago
        [dead]
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
logicchains 2y ago
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/oct/04/fluoridation-water-epa-risk-assessement https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/oct/04/fluoridation...
- _yb2s 2y ago
  I am an academic scientist and generally a careful and skeptical person, but having read the peer reviewed literature myself, I think there is enough evidence to be concerned that water fluoridation at the levels currently used could possibly be causing brain damage or developmental issues. The evidence isn't that strong, but it is strong enough that it would be unethical to continue the practice, or to claim that there is nothing to worry about. The dose/response curves seem to show measurable levels of cognitive defects occurring right around, or just above typical target levels for fluoridation. Personally, I give my kid water with the flouride filtered out via RO, but will still use topical flouride, e.g. toothpaste and treatments applied by a dentist. I hate how issues like this are politicized... if I raise this issue anywhere, including on here I expect to be attacked for being a "conspiracy theorist" and "like an anti-vaxxer" etc. There is something really wrong when you aren't allowed to even talk about both sides of an issue- especially if, like in my case, I have a doctorate in the life sciences and am qualified to have my own informed scientific opinion based on the evidence.
  - bee_rider 2y ago
    Is that an opinion formed on something inside your domain of expertise?
    - _yb2s 2y ago
      It is not in any way related to my own area of research, I looked into it as a parent wondering what would be best for my own kid. However, there is not really that much research out there on this- so I was able to review much of the primary research, as well as various review articles that try to consider all of it together. How would you define "domain of expertise"? Reviewing literature from other fields I don't research myself and forming an opinion on how it applies to my research is part of my job and something I do almost every day. I am even also called upon to peer review articles and grant proposals that are not within my direct field of research, as is general practice to get "outside opinions." In cases like this, I am able to be familiar with basically everything published on the issue. However an actual researcher in a specific field will have additional knowledge and opinions from firsthand experience, that cannot be found in literature. In general, I think it is okay to have your own opinion on something even if you aren't e.g. a professional whose whole life is focused exactly on that one issue. No formal training, credentials, or firsthand experience are necessarily required to have an informed opinion. However, you still have the burden of making sure you really understand the issue deeply - which is probably something like 100x the effort most people think it would be. Anyone can do that if they take the time to do so. I wish more people would. In any case, this was a few years back when I looked into it, and it seems like these concerns have become more mainstream and less controversial in the last few years, e.g. https://ntp.niehs.nih.gov/publications/monographs/mgraph08 https://ntp.niehs.nih.gov/publications/monographs/mgraph08

rmellow 2y ago

Adding iodine to salt has greatly increased the population's IQ in countries that have adopted it. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15734706/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15734706/

crooked-v 2y ago

Sure: the popularization of coffee across western Europe in the 1600s and 1700s, and the way it replaced beer as the most common daytime casual drink. Much of the population went from spending all day mildly intoxicated to being mostly sober and with a caffeine pick-me-up.

positr0n 2y ago
Do you know if it was really most the population? Or just most of the intellectuals, nobility, bourgeois, etc. Were peasants coffee drinkers?

dtquad 2y ago

There are some evidence that Ozempic/Wegovy actually cures more addictions than just food addiction. >The weight-loss jabs have apparently helped people kick habits from smoking to shopping, although scientists remain wary about recommending it as an addiction treatment https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2023/05/ozempic-addictive-behavior-drinking-smoking/674098/ https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2023/05/ozempic-a...

Ferret7446 2y ago
Which makes perfect sense. All addictions are basically* the same thing, an outlet for negative emotion. The "drug" of choice, whether that be food, video games, shopping, etc. is fairly superficial. Often, people who "kick" one addiction simply switch over to another addiction.

anigbrowl 2y ago

Some athletes (especially weightlifters) use Tadalafil, an erectile dysfunction drug, because it also promotes bone density and muscle growth while having few observable side effects. This isn't really surprising, it's basically just a mild vasodilator. A better known drug in the same class Sildenafil (aka Viagra) is less mild, and associated with retinal damage if overused.