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I am not an expert in this area but I think one has to go further back in time before religions were weaponized, censored, intentionally mistranslated, edited a

I am not an expert in this area but I think one has to go further back in time before religions were weaponized, censored, intentionally mistranslated, edited and otherwise tainted by kings and emperors. One example might be Gnosticism [1] not the modern version. There are probably better examples from earlier times of antiquity but again I am not an expert in this area. I would wager someone here may be knowledgeable in this area. Perhaps some religions around the time period of the Mycenaean period or other periods where people may have partaken in mind expanding substances as a matter of religious or cult practice? Or perhaps theories around psychedelic drugs used in the Eleusinian Mysteries? [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnosticism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnosticism

lazide 2y ago
Uh, when ‘further back’ has religion not been weaponized? Every major religion in recorded history, and all the ones I’m aware of from prehistory, have some history of violence. Even Buddhism. This is one of those ‘false ideal past’ things.
- bobthepanda 2y ago
  Buddhism has ongoing violence, today, if you count the persecution of the Rohingya in Myanmar.
- LinuxBender 2y ago
  I should have been more clear. When I say weaponized I meant to manipulate societies and control peoples traditions, compliance with governments and less to do with wars, crusades, jihads and the like. This seems to fluctuate throughout history but then again I am not an expert on this topic. Dominance of the patriarchy vs the sacred feminine and such... I am probably still being too vague.
  - lazide 2y ago
    What do you think religion is exactly? At least organized religion. You can draw lines of causation back and forth between those two (or three) big things pretty much arbitrarily depending on the specific circumstances.
o11c 2y ago
The problem with Gnosticism is that it was highly prone to people inventing their own fanfiction that completely contradicted the canonical source material (and a warning against this exact thing is in the source itself). Of course, this doesn't stop the same from applying to "mainstream" denominations too.
- AStonesThrow 2y ago
  Around 2002, I asked a Dominican friar if it was true that The Matrix films were promoting Gnosticism. He said that I could find Gnosticism just about anywhere, if I looked closely enough. Pair that with Modernism, and you've got a recipe for some slippery definitions of "truth".
  - o11c 2y ago
    If you define it literally, you can easily find "Gnosticism" (personal knowledge/revelation) in the Bible itself (e.g. Mt 11, Mt 16, Lk 2, Jn 16, 2 Tim 3, all of Rev). But we generally agree to only label it as Gnosticism if it doesn't pass the consistency trial (2 Pet 1, 1 Jn 4), and especially if it outright fails it.
- debit-freak 2y ago
  How is that a problem? Even within christianity the bible is not considered "true" or "absolute" or "the word of god" or "sacred" outside of niche literalist communities. If you're chasing coherence with texts written by humans you're likely to end up bitter and confused (or openly exploitative) rather than benefitting. EDIT: Especially in the context of christianity, the importance of faith/belief cannot be overstated. Even the very act of looking for proof that you're doing the right thing can arguably undermine the entire point of the "religion". cf John 3:16—"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." NB, as awkward as I am to quoting the bible, I am an atheist. I'm just saying this doesn't need to be a barrier to understanding other people.
  - o11c 2y ago

lazide 2y ago

Uh, when ‘further back’ has religion not been weaponized? Every major religion in recorded history, and all the ones I’m aware of from prehistory, have some history of violence. Even Buddhism. This is one of those ‘false ideal past’ things.

bobthepanda 2y ago
Buddhism has ongoing violence, today, if you count the persecution of the Rohingya in Myanmar.
LinuxBender 2y ago
I should have been more clear. When I say weaponized I meant to manipulate societies and control peoples traditions, compliance with governments and less to do with wars, crusades, jihads and the like. This seems to fluctuate throughout history but then again I am not an expert on this topic. Dominance of the patriarchy vs the sacred feminine and such... I am probably still being too vague.
- lazide 2y ago
  What do you think religion is exactly? At least organized religion. You can draw lines of causation back and forth between those two (or three) big things pretty much arbitrarily depending on the specific circumstances.

o11c 2y ago

The problem with Gnosticism is that it was highly prone to people inventing their own fanfiction that completely contradicted the canonical source material (and a warning against this exact thing is in the source itself). Of course, this doesn't stop the same from applying to "mainstream" denominations too.

AStonesThrow 2y ago
Around 2002, I asked a Dominican friar if it was true that The Matrix films were promoting Gnosticism. He said that I could find Gnosticism just about anywhere, if I looked closely enough. Pair that with Modernism, and you've got a recipe for some slippery definitions of "truth".
- o11c 2y ago
  If you define it literally, you can easily find "Gnosticism" (personal knowledge/revelation) in the Bible itself (e.g. Mt 11, Mt 16, Lk 2, Jn 16, 2 Tim 3, all of Rev). But we generally agree to only label it as Gnosticism if it doesn't pass the consistency trial (2 Pet 1, 1 Jn 4), and especially if it outright fails it.
debit-freak 2y ago
How is that a problem? Even within christianity the bible is not considered "true" or "absolute" or "the word of god" or "sacred" outside of niche literalist communities. If you're chasing coherence with texts written by humans you're likely to end up bitter and confused (or openly exploitative) rather than benefitting. EDIT: Especially in the context of christianity, the importance of faith/belief cannot be overstated. Even the very act of looking for proof that you're doing the right thing can arguably undermine the entire point of the "religion". cf John 3:16—"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." NB, as awkward as I am to quoting the bible, I am an atheist. I'm just saying this doesn't need to be a barrier to understanding other people.
- o11c 2y ago