4 ms·

Wine and DXVK are already running on Android and they play Windows games with the rendering and computational complexity of Fallout 4 at playable framerates on

Wine and DXVK are already running on Android and they play Windows games with the rendering and computational complexity of Fallout 4 at playable framerates on many of the latest smartphone SoCs. It's still WIP, but it's already gone beyond proof of concept, people are using them. Valve don't need the developers to be on-board in order to run their games on anything else, that's why Proton exists. What Valve want is the dissolution between platform/architecture and store. By my eye, it's the driving force of their efforts, more so than them selling hardware or being the open source good guys. Not to undervalue their work in helping make Linux a first class citizen for gaming, but the core of their business model is getting people to engage with their store, full stop, and being able to sell their games on Android (and elsewhere) would massively extend their reach. This may go both ways too, there's also been indications that Valve have been tinkering with Waydroid, meaning Steam could also become a store for Android-native games.

pjmlp 2y ago
It looks more like how to avoid paying Windows licenses for the SteamDeck to me.
- wtetzner 2y ago
  I'd guess SteamOS is more about control than licensing costs. I don't think Valve wants to be at the mercy of Microsoft and their policy & technical decisions.
- kbolino 2y ago
  That's a small part of it, I think. They've almost certainly spent a lot more on pouring time and effort into Linux than they ever would have saved on license fees. It seems like Valve doesn't want to be beholden to Microsoft in any way. They support Windows because that's where the users and the games are, but they don't want Microsoft to be able to rug-pull them either.
  - pjmlp 2y ago
    Except that they are, to the extent they depend on Microsoft technologies for the games that run on Proton.
    - kbolino 2y ago
      As far as I am aware, neither Valve nor the independent Wine/Proton developers are bound by any licensing agreements with Microsoft. They are clean-room implementing the same technologies, but they are not beholden to Microsoft in any legal way. Of course, drastic changes in laws or policy regimes could alter this dynamic, but those are out-of-context risks. In order for Microsoft to rug-pull the technology (which is quite different from rug-pulling the business model), they'd have to break compatibility on Windows itself. Video games remain a major reason for home users to run Windows. Making ABI-breaking changes to Win32 or DirectX is just not very likely to happen. And if it did happen, it would be a boon to Valve and not a harm. The biggest risk (and this would be a classic Microsoft move, to be fair) I can foresee is aggressive API changes that make it hard for Valve/Wine/Proton to keep up but also make it hard for game developers not to. I'm not exactly sure what this would look like, and a lot of the core technologies are pretty stable by now, but it's a possibility. It's not, however, going to harm anything that already exists.
      - homebrewer 2y ago
        They can restrict .NET and the C++ stdlibs so that you can only run them under Windows (through a license change or by introducing a code check), but if they hadn't done that in Ballmer days, I don't think they will now.
    - rowanG077 2y ago
      Not they aren't dependent on Ms tech. Wine is not by ms.
- talldayo 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - pjmlp 2y ago
    Because people love to celebrate Proton as if it was doing anything for GNU/Linux games, when in reality is another OS/2 take on Windows.
    - talldayo 2y ago
      It doesn't have to do anything for GNU/Linux games, that's been an option for years and it's a ghost town a-la Metal-native games. Valve (and the community) are doing the right thing by ignoring the Apple strategy of enforcing distribution terms they will abandon within the decade. Developers that want to program for Linux still can. It's just as stupid as it was when the first Steam Machine rolled out. By supporting Proton, they are guaranteeing that modern and retro Windows games will be playable on Linux far into the future. Trying to get the next Call of Duty to support Linux natively is, quite literally, a waste of everyone's time that could possibly be involved in the process. I cannot see a single salient reason why Linux users would want developers to release a proprietary, undersupported and easily broken native build when translation can be updated and modified to support practically any runtime.
      - sweeter 2y ago
        Yea. You either have to pump a ton of money into it like Apple tries to do to get devs to target your OS, or you can take matters into your own hands and do the unthinkable with Wine and Proton. Its unironically a silver bullet solution. Otherwise we'd all be waiting for years to make 1/1000th the progress
    - michaelmrose 2y ago
      The practical implication is that one can click one button and buy install and play thousands of games on Linux. Only MS stockholders are liable to care about the implications for Windows.
    - 2y ago
- sandworm101 2y ago
  Close, but the root is more nuanced. Once upon a time, Microsoft was talking about regulating "apps" on windows like Apple does for the iPhone. Valve saw the writing on the wall: a potential ban on violent or otherwise adult-themed games. So Valve started the steambox project. Get the games running on linux/WINE and they could tell Microsoft to push off. Years later, we have the steamdeck as a revolutionary product and linux is the go-to OS for portable gaming.
  - pjmlp 2y ago
    Running Windows games on top, which will work until it doesn't.
    - michaelmrose 2y ago
      What trouble do you foresee?
    - rowanG077 2y ago
      I mean practice has shown it's not a problem. What else is there?
    - johnfernow 2y ago
      What do you foresee not working in the future? If future versions of Proton break compatibility with older Windows apps, you can use different old versions of Proton for individual games. Steam makes this very easy on Linux, but rarely is it necessary. I don't foresee many Linux distros breaking compatibility with Wine, which is good, as some devs argue Win32 is the only stable ABI on Linux. [1] I don't foresee legal issues either, as Wine has been around for 31 years, and its corporate sponsors have included Google in the past. I've seen no indication that the project is on shaky legal grounds. Microsoft could always create a new API that Wine doesn't yet support, but good luck getting developers to use it -- they've tried many times, but not much has stuck, and most devs just stick with Win32. [2] 1. https://blog.hiler.eu/win32-the-only-stable-abi/ https://blog.hiler.eu/win32-the-only-stable-abi/ 2. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36060678 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36060678
- p_l 2y ago
  I don't remember how officially it was stated, but original push by Valve for steam on Linux with Proton was to remove their dependency on Microsoft - a hedge against possible future ecosystem-impacting decisions in Redmond. Making SteamDeck use windows wouldn't impact prices much, Microsoft is really friendly for putting windows by OEMs. Could even run modified to act like current steam deck. Instead, SteamDeck is there to drive up testing on Proton or straight forward porting to Linux, which just availability on Linux and the previous steam machine didn't drive up
- ikety 2y ago
  Linux/Unix has been used as a base overwhelmingly in pretty much every new consumer OS for decades. Not to mention Microsoft certainly cuts deals with manufacturers when it comes to windows on portable devices (I think at one point they offered free licenses on devices with screen sizes under 8 inches). The steam deck is 100% usable without leaving 'game mode' even a single time. Something that is genuinely impossible using Windows as a base. That's the important part
- scheeseman486 2y ago
  The amount of money Valve has pumped into Linux would have far exceeded the money they saved through licensing Windows. Like probably by an order of magnitude or more. For someone as smart as you seem to be, your points don't make a whole lot of sense.

pjmlp 2y ago

It looks more like how to avoid paying Windows licenses for the SteamDeck to me.

wtetzner 2y ago
I'd guess SteamOS is more about control than licensing costs. I don't think Valve wants to be at the mercy of Microsoft and their policy & technical decisions.
kbolino 2y ago
That's a small part of it, I think. They've almost certainly spent a lot more on pouring time and effort into Linux than they ever would have saved on license fees. It seems like Valve doesn't want to be beholden to Microsoft in any way. They support Windows because that's where the users and the games are, but they don't want Microsoft to be able to rug-pull them either.
- pjmlp 2y ago
  Except that they are, to the extent they depend on Microsoft technologies for the games that run on Proton.
  - kbolino 2y ago
    As far as I am aware, neither Valve nor the independent Wine/Proton developers are bound by any licensing agreements with Microsoft. They are clean-room implementing the same technologies, but they are not beholden to Microsoft in any legal way. Of course, drastic changes in laws or policy regimes could alter this dynamic, but those are out-of-context risks. In order for Microsoft to rug-pull the technology (which is quite different from rug-pulling the business model), they'd have to break compatibility on Windows itself. Video games remain a major reason for home users to run Windows. Making ABI-breaking changes to Win32 or DirectX is just not very likely to happen. And if it did happen, it would be a boon to Valve and not a harm. The biggest risk (and this would be a classic Microsoft move, to be fair) I can foresee is aggressive API changes that make it hard for Valve/Wine/Proton to keep up but also make it hard for game developers not to. I'm not exactly sure what this would look like, and a lot of the core technologies are pretty stable by now, but it's a possibility. It's not, however, going to harm anything that already exists.
    - homebrewer 2y ago
      They can restrict .NET and the C++ stdlibs so that you can only run them under Windows (through a license change or by introducing a code check), but if they hadn't done that in Ballmer days, I don't think they will now.
  - rowanG077 2y ago
    Not they aren't dependent on Ms tech. Wine is not by ms.
talldayo 2y ago
[flagged]
- pjmlp 2y ago
  Because people love to celebrate Proton as if it was doing anything for GNU/Linux games, when in reality is another OS/2 take on Windows.
  - talldayo 2y ago
    It doesn't have to do anything for GNU/Linux games, that's been an option for years and it's a ghost town a-la Metal-native games. Valve (and the community) are doing the right thing by ignoring the Apple strategy of enforcing distribution terms they will abandon within the decade. Developers that want to program for Linux still can. It's just as stupid as it was when the first Steam Machine rolled out. By supporting Proton, they are guaranteeing that modern and retro Windows games will be playable on Linux far into the future. Trying to get the next Call of Duty to support Linux natively is, quite literally, a waste of everyone's time that could possibly be involved in the process. I cannot see a single salient reason why Linux users would want developers to release a proprietary, undersupported and easily broken native build when translation can be updated and modified to support practically any runtime.
    - sweeter 2y ago
      Yea. You either have to pump a ton of money into it like Apple tries to do to get devs to target your OS, or you can take matters into your own hands and do the unthinkable with Wine and Proton. Its unironically a silver bullet solution. Otherwise we'd all be waiting for years to make 1/1000th the progress
  - michaelmrose 2y ago
    The practical implication is that one can click one button and buy install and play thousands of games on Linux. Only MS stockholders are liable to care about the implications for Windows.
  - 2y ago
sandworm101 2y ago
Close, but the root is more nuanced. Once upon a time, Microsoft was talking about regulating "apps" on windows like Apple does for the iPhone. Valve saw the writing on the wall: a potential ban on violent or otherwise adult-themed games. So Valve started the steambox project. Get the games running on linux/WINE and they could tell Microsoft to push off. Years later, we have the steamdeck as a revolutionary product and linux is the go-to OS for portable gaming.
- pjmlp 2y ago
  Running Windows games on top, which will work until it doesn't.
  - michaelmrose 2y ago
    What trouble do you foresee?
  - rowanG077 2y ago
    I mean practice has shown it's not a problem. What else is there?
  - johnfernow 2y ago
    What do you foresee not working in the future? If future versions of Proton break compatibility with older Windows apps, you can use different old versions of Proton for individual games. Steam makes this very easy on Linux, but rarely is it necessary. I don't foresee many Linux distros breaking compatibility with Wine, which is good, as some devs argue Win32 is the only stable ABI on Linux. [1] I don't foresee legal issues either, as Wine has been around for 31 years, and its corporate sponsors have included Google in the past. I've seen no indication that the project is on shaky legal grounds. Microsoft could always create a new API that Wine doesn't yet support, but good luck getting developers to use it -- they've tried many times, but not much has stuck, and most devs just stick with Win32. [2] 1. https://blog.hiler.eu/win32-the-only-stable-abi/ https://blog.hiler.eu/win32-the-only-stable-abi/ 2. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36060678 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36060678
p_l 2y ago
I don't remember how officially it was stated, but original push by Valve for steam on Linux with Proton was to remove their dependency on Microsoft - a hedge against possible future ecosystem-impacting decisions in Redmond. Making SteamDeck use windows wouldn't impact prices much, Microsoft is really friendly for putting windows by OEMs. Could even run modified to act like current steam deck. Instead, SteamDeck is there to drive up testing on Proton or straight forward porting to Linux, which just availability on Linux and the previous steam machine didn't drive up
ikety 2y ago
Linux/Unix has been used as a base overwhelmingly in pretty much every new consumer OS for decades. Not to mention Microsoft certainly cuts deals with manufacturers when it comes to windows on portable devices (I think at one point they offered free licenses on devices with screen sizes under 8 inches). The steam deck is 100% usable without leaving 'game mode' even a single time. Something that is genuinely impossible using Windows as a base. That's the important part
scheeseman486 2y ago
The amount of money Valve has pumped into Linux would have far exceeded the money they saved through licensing Windows. Like probably by an order of magnitude or more. For someone as smart as you seem to be, your points don't make a whole lot of sense.