3 ms·

You know what screams "democratizate transportation"? 99% single occupancy vehicles (well, that's democratic, I'll grant them that) controlled by a corporation

by oblio 2y ago

You know what screams "democratizate transportation"? 99% single occupancy vehicles (well, that's democratic, I'll grant them that) controlled by a corporation known for a million abuses and basically no oversight, everything managed by faceless software. Let me tell you an Uber story. I've been an Uber customer across multiple countries for many years, and one day, I had a layover in London. So I tried to book an Uber in London, but it failed a few times for technical reasons (so their problem). After a bunch of attempts, I received a notification my account was banned. I contacted support, they gave me the runaround for 30 minutes or more, in the end their response was the standard BigCorp canned answer for fraud: "we can't tell you why your actions are suspicious" (with the subtext: if you're an innocent victim of our scans, tough luck, but we can't tell you because statistically if we tell you what you did wrong, real fraudsters will learn and defraud us even more). So now I can't use Uber in the UK (I imagine if I try to circumvent the ban with another account, I risk that getting banned, too, and who knows what else, as I have to put my credit card in their app). Now imagine if you want to plan your life around stuff like Tesla Robotaxi and they ban you. What's your recourse? With your own motorbike/car, you need to commit serious crimes to lose your license forever. With public transportation, as long as you pay the ticket, nobody can ban you for life. And I don't think anyone can take away your bike/ebike/scooter/escooter :-)

jillesvangurp 2y ago
Are normal taxis any different? Most of them only have one or two passengers. Typically in the backseat which gets kind of crowded with more people. You can get bigger taxis of course. But I'm talking about the common sedan model with the driver in the front. An unused front seat on the right. And the one or two passengers in the back. Exactly the same thing. Except there's no need for the driver. I don't get the moral outrage here. It's taxi with one person less (the driver). Also available as a model 3 and y. And the robovan thing. So they do actually cover a range of vehicles with different amounts of passengers.
- oblio 2y ago
  > Are normal taxis any different? Most of them only have one or two passengers. Typically in the backseat which gets kind of crowded with more people. You can get bigger taxis of course. But I'm talking about the common sedan model with the driver in the front. An unused front seat on the right. And the one or two passengers in the back. Exactly the same thing. Except there's no need for the driver. We need to invest in walkable, bikeable cities and public transportation, not help these companies that lobby for making less liveable cities and towns. That was my main point for that angle. I know Americans hate each other and public transportation, but everything has a trade off and Robotaxis won't make our lives better. > I don't get the moral outrage here. It's taxi with one person less (the driver). Also available as a model 3 and y. And the robovan thing. So they do actually cover a range of vehicles with different amounts of passengers. How often to riders get banned from taxi companies? The Robotaxi looks like a service, ride hailing. Are these vehicles actually sold?
  - jillesvangurp 2y ago
    I don't think what you outline here, which I agree would be a good thing, and what Tesla announced are mutually exclusive. In fact, I think Tesla's announcement is just about the most concrete thing from any car manufacturer that gets us closer to that. Getting rid of drivers means less space for parking is needed. It also means better utilization of the vehicles. So, less cars on the road. And they'll be electric so a lot more quiet and less smelly. And they also have a bus form factor; perfect for public transport. Elon Musk actually showed some visuals of cities being greened this way. Complete with a cheesy joke about taking the 'ing' out of parking. So, you are outraged because Elon Musk is doing exactly as you demand but just not in a way that you like?
    - oblio 2y ago
      Cars are inherently space inefficient. Self driving won't save them. We're talking about 10-15 sqm directly occupied on the road plus probably 100 more sqm for safe braking, etc. This new tool should be at best a niche one, but convenience, as usual, kills.
    - aziaziazi 2y ago
- enragedcacti 2y ago
  "Well taxi's only have four seats, and four is basically three, which when you really think about it is only two" IDK it just seems weird to me how completely unimaginative the Cybertaxi is. Its ostensibly a revolution in transportation but everything about the form and function is essentially identical to an unpainted 2011 Honda CR-Z. It makes zero effort to imagine how a driverless car could be different or better in fundamental ways, which makes the Cybertaxi just another small incremental step in the decade long procession of broken self driving promises from Elon.
  - jillesvangurp 2y ago
    Many taxis shield off the driver; so the front right seat is not available for passengers. That's why I said two. In any case. The vast majority of rides is just one passenger, regardless of the size of the vehicle.
    - enragedcacti 2y ago
      Ignoring for a moment that three is still more than two, drivers in the US don't love it but its usually fine if you are respectful and have a reason, especially in an Uber or Lyft. Elsewhere its more common to sit up front or even considered rude not to. Regardless, I think your argument speaks to my point. Even if the cybertaxi compares similarly in capability to a traditional taxi, Tesla isn't positioning it as one, they are positioning it as the vehicle of the future but the design betrays a complete lack of imagination for what that future will look like beyond playing Cyberpunk on your commute. Why should we be comparing it solely against the 2% niche of vehicle miles in ridehailing instead of the other 98% that its promising to make obsolete?
      - oblio 2y ago
        It's literally named "Robotaxi", plus what makes you think people want to give ownership so easily?
        enragedcacti 2y ago
airtonix 2y ago
[dead]
piyuv 2y ago
From https://www.asomo.co/p/the-luddites-guide-to-defending-physical-cash https://www.asomo.co/p/the-luddites-guide-to-defending-physi...: > As a thought experiment, imagine if all forms of transport except Uber were removed from our society, resulting in total ‘Uberfication’. What would happen in this ‘convenient’ society? > For a start, you’d notice that your entire ability to move depended on an institution. While the first few weeks of trips might not bug you, over time it would begin to feel deeply stifling, even oppressive. The mass dependence on a intermediary would not only transfer mass power to Uber, but would in turn unlock a host of other problems: He goes on to explain these very well.
- specialist 2y ago
  Yes and: That essay is a good start. Agree with all. However, it uses the frames (starting assumptions) of neoliberalism (markets solve everything) and public choice theory (solve politics with just so stories). Versus say humanism, dignity, sovereignty, and right to self-determination. What about fair and impartial adjudication of disputes, determining tort, and dispensing justice? These Big Bad vs Consumer framings don't (adequately) say what to do about inherit power imbalances. Who are the referees? When our government's "monopoly over violence" is usurped by corporations, acting as police-judge-jury-executioner, disenfranchising actual people, we're all just wage slaves, paid with company scrip, struggling to get our basic needs met. Road to Serfdom indeed.
  - stonethrowaway 2y ago
    > Who are the referees? Bought and paid for. Uber broke and ignored so many laws it was obvious the referees were on their side all along.

by oblio 2y ago

jillesvangurp 2y ago

Are normal taxis any different? Most of them only have one or two passengers. Typically in the backseat which gets kind of crowded with more people. You can get bigger taxis of course. But I'm talking about the common sedan model with the driver in the front. An unused front seat on the right. And the one or two passengers in the back. Exactly the same thing. Except there's no need for the driver. I don't get the moral outrage here. It's taxi with one person less (the driver). Also available as a model 3 and y. And the robovan thing. So they do actually cover a range of vehicles with different amounts of passengers.

oblio 2y ago
> Are normal taxis any different? Most of them only have one or two passengers. Typically in the backseat which gets kind of crowded with more people. You can get bigger taxis of course. But I'm talking about the common sedan model with the driver in the front. An unused front seat on the right. And the one or two passengers in the back. Exactly the same thing. Except there's no need for the driver. We need to invest in walkable, bikeable cities and public transportation, not help these companies that lobby for making less liveable cities and towns. That was my main point for that angle. I know Americans hate each other and public transportation, but everything has a trade off and Robotaxis won't make our lives better. > I don't get the moral outrage here. It's taxi with one person less (the driver). Also available as a model 3 and y. And the robovan thing. So they do actually cover a range of vehicles with different amounts of passengers. How often to riders get banned from taxi companies? The Robotaxi looks like a service, ride hailing. Are these vehicles actually sold?
- jillesvangurp 2y ago
  I don't think what you outline here, which I agree would be a good thing, and what Tesla announced are mutually exclusive. In fact, I think Tesla's announcement is just about the most concrete thing from any car manufacturer that gets us closer to that. Getting rid of drivers means less space for parking is needed. It also means better utilization of the vehicles. So, less cars on the road. And they'll be electric so a lot more quiet and less smelly. And they also have a bus form factor; perfect for public transport. Elon Musk actually showed some visuals of cities being greened this way. Complete with a cheesy joke about taking the 'ing' out of parking. So, you are outraged because Elon Musk is doing exactly as you demand but just not in a way that you like?
  - oblio 2y ago
    Cars are inherently space inefficient. Self driving won't save them. We're talking about 10-15 sqm directly occupied on the road plus probably 100 more sqm for safe braking, etc. This new tool should be at best a niche one, but convenience, as usual, kills.
  - aziaziazi 2y ago
enragedcacti 2y ago
"Well taxi's only have four seats, and four is basically three, which when you really think about it is only two" IDK it just seems weird to me how completely unimaginative the Cybertaxi is. Its ostensibly a revolution in transportation but everything about the form and function is essentially identical to an unpainted 2011 Honda CR-Z. It makes zero effort to imagine how a driverless car could be different or better in fundamental ways, which makes the Cybertaxi just another small incremental step in the decade long procession of broken self driving promises from Elon.
- jillesvangurp 2y ago
  Many taxis shield off the driver; so the front right seat is not available for passengers. That's why I said two. In any case. The vast majority of rides is just one passenger, regardless of the size of the vehicle.
  - enragedcacti 2y ago
    Ignoring for a moment that three is still more than two, drivers in the US don't love it but its usually fine if you are respectful and have a reason, especially in an Uber or Lyft. Elsewhere its more common to sit up front or even considered rude not to. Regardless, I think your argument speaks to my point. Even if the cybertaxi compares similarly in capability to a traditional taxi, Tesla isn't positioning it as one, they are positioning it as the vehicle of the future but the design betrays a complete lack of imagination for what that future will look like beyond playing Cyberpunk on your commute. Why should we be comparing it solely against the 2% niche of vehicle miles in ridehailing instead of the other 98% that its promising to make obsolete?
    - oblio 2y ago
      It's literally named "Robotaxi", plus what makes you think people want to give ownership so easily?
      - enragedcacti 2y ago

airtonix 2y ago

[dead]

piyuv 2y ago

From https://www.asomo.co/p/the-luddites-guide-to-defending-physical-cash https://www.asomo.co/p/the-luddites-guide-to-defending-physi...: > As a thought experiment, imagine if all forms of transport except Uber were removed from our society, resulting in total ‘Uberfication’. What would happen in this ‘convenient’ society? > For a start, you’d notice that your entire ability to move depended on an institution. While the first few weeks of trips might not bug you, over time it would begin to feel deeply stifling, even oppressive. The mass dependence on a intermediary would not only transfer mass power to Uber, but would in turn unlock a host of other problems: He goes on to explain these very well.

specialist 2y ago
Yes and: That essay is a good start. Agree with all. However, it uses the frames (starting assumptions) of neoliberalism (markets solve everything) and public choice theory (solve politics with just so stories). Versus say humanism, dignity, sovereignty, and right to self-determination. What about fair and impartial adjudication of disputes, determining tort, and dispensing justice? These Big Bad vs Consumer framings don't (adequately) say what to do about inherit power imbalances. Who are the referees? When our government's "monopoly over violence" is usurped by corporations, acting as police-judge-jury-executioner, disenfranchising actual people, we're all just wage slaves, paid with company scrip, struggling to get our basic needs met. Road to Serfdom indeed.
- stonethrowaway 2y ago
  > Who are the referees? Bought and paid for. Uber broke and ignored so many laws it was obvious the referees were on their side all along.