3 ms·

"healthcare in general is full of phenomena that we'd rather not admit." What kind of things are you talking about?

mike_hearn 2y ago
The obvious example would be the placebo effect. Drug/vaccine trials are the only area of science I can think of that are routinely held up as pinnacles of rationality, the outputs of which all Good Citizens must take on faith, and yet which attempt to control for some sort of paranormal force in which people can unconsciously fix their own bodies through psionic abilities. This regularly happens and nobody seems the slightest bit curious about why. That is, when you think about it, totally mad. I'd suggest it's got to be either: 1. The only psychology mystery worth investigating, or 2. A sign that clinical trials are actually mostly junk science Either would be hard to admit.
- inglor_cz 2y ago
  "some sort of paranormal force in which people can unconsciously fix their own bodies through psionic abilities." I think you are being very dismissive there. After all, the placebo effect happens in your body, which your mind inhabits. These are not two separate systems interacting by some magical means. This is one system with various subsystems that interact all the time. Concrete mechanism of the placebo effect is still unknown, but the observation that your immune system can be influenced by your mental state isn't in itself magical. Our bodies respond to all sorts of mental states. We get red in face when embarassed, and sometimes must run to the toilet when scared etc. All this "psionic" "paranormal" label stuff would only apply if someone could do it to other people without them even knowing.
  - mike_hearn 2y ago
    Sure, but I think most people would place very hard limits on what you can do to just think yourself better. Your mind can't cure cancer, eliminate viruses, regrow arms etc. Yet we routinely design clinical trials as if it can. And ... nobody seems to think this is in any way strange!
- wavemode 2y ago
  Placebos have been studied. Most studies have found that, while placebos are effective for treating pain, they are mostly not effective outside of that, when compared to receiving no treatment at all. Some people really do become spontaneously cured of diseases, yes - it happens all the time, and is something worth studying further. But the idea that the placebo effect is what causes it, is not really well-founded.
  - mike_hearn 2y ago
    Clinical trials do use placebos all the time, even when studying things that don't involve pain. Somewhat notoriously some trials give patients a placebo that's actually another drug, as otherwise people could unblind themselves by not suffering side effects. The COVID vaccine trials did this. It doesn't make sense if you think the placebo effect only influences perception of pain, as otherwise you could lose the placebo entirely and double your statistical power (compare against a synthetic control group).

The obvious example would be the placebo effect. Drug/vaccine trials are the only area of science I can think of that are routinely held up as pinnacles of rationality, the outputs of which all Good Citizens must take on faith, and yet which attempt to control for some sort of paranormal force in which people can unconsciously fix their own bodies through psionic abilities. This regularly happens and nobody seems the slightest bit curious about why. That is, when you think about it, totally mad. I'd suggest it's got to be either: 1. The only psychology mystery worth investigating, or 2. A sign that clinical trials are actually mostly junk science Either would be hard to admit.

inglor_cz 2y ago
"some sort of paranormal force in which people can unconsciously fix their own bodies through psionic abilities." I think you are being very dismissive there. After all, the placebo effect happens in your body, which your mind inhabits. These are not two separate systems interacting by some magical means. This is one system with various subsystems that interact all the time. Concrete mechanism of the placebo effect is still unknown, but the observation that your immune system can be influenced by your mental state isn't in itself magical. Our bodies respond to all sorts of mental states. We get red in face when embarassed, and sometimes must run to the toilet when scared etc. All this "psionic" "paranormal" label stuff would only apply if someone could do it to other people without them even knowing.
- mike_hearn 2y ago
  Sure, but I think most people would place very hard limits on what you can do to just think yourself better. Your mind can't cure cancer, eliminate viruses, regrow arms etc. Yet we routinely design clinical trials as if it can. And ... nobody seems to think this is in any way strange!
wavemode 2y ago
Placebos have been studied. Most studies have found that, while placebos are effective for treating pain, they are mostly not effective outside of that, when compared to receiving no treatment at all. Some people really do become spontaneously cured of diseases, yes - it happens all the time, and is something worth studying further. But the idea that the placebo effect is what causes it, is not really well-founded.
- mike_hearn 2y ago
  Clinical trials do use placebos all the time, even when studying things that don't involve pain. Somewhat notoriously some trials give patients a placebo that's actually another drug, as otherwise people could unblind themselves by not suffering side effects. The COVID vaccine trials did this. It doesn't make sense if you think the placebo effect only influences perception of pain, as otherwise you could lose the placebo entirely and double your statistical power (compare against a synthetic control group).