5 ms·

I'm Running Out of Ways to Explain How Bad This Is

39 points by miles 2y ago

OutOfHere 2y ago
Somehow I suspect it is targeted disinfo for a political cause; truth be dammed. When they can't win by truth, they try to win by targeted viral lies. It's as if Cambridge Analytica were reborn for 2024, targeting individuals with custom lies that they will fall for. In the future, we can look forward to realistic fake videos to go with these lies.
- theshrike79 2y ago
  This is a longer process that started before Donald's first term as president. Now it's bearing fruit, people seriously doubt EVERYTHING official. If anyone with a degree or a generally trusted platform says something, a worrying number of people reflexively don't accept it as fact - instead they make up their own facts or get them from people they, for some reason, trust.
  - readthenotes1 2y ago
    The censorship of the lab leak theory might have something to do with it
    - piva00 2y ago
      It's been happening way before COVID, your post exemplifies the sentiment: if trusted sources fail at any point they become absolutely distrusted, and people prefer to choose their sources which further departs from a shared reality. There might have been issues with censoring the lab leak theory, perhaps there were reasons for that such as it not being publicly proven, there was conjecture, etc. but because someone chooses to believe in it, and someone else do not then you got a split reality between them. Rinse and repeat for a multitude of topics and we get to where we are. The USA is the canary in the coal mine for this, or perhaps the seed that's spreading across many other countries, hard to tell. Given the free speech absolutism I personally believe it's a bit of both, it's the canary that also seeded a whole movement of conspiracy theorists grifters. I see that happening in Brazil as well, following on the footsteps of what people like Rush Limbaugh, Alex Jones, etc. created in the USA. And now in Europe I see glimpses of it everywhere.
      - fucktheatlantic 2y ago
        It’s been happening since the Warren Commission and it’s going to keep happening for good reason. The government isn’t trustworthy and by deliberately hiding things from the American public, the American imagination begins to wander. We talk about government censorship around COVID like it’s a drop in the bucket, well it’s a pretty big drop in a pretty deep bucket. Now we have the same corporate media who allowed themselves to be censored by the government telling us that we ought to remove free speech protections when they’re far more complicit than any social media CEO, it’s pathetic.
      - tivert 2y ago
        > It's been happening way before COVID, your post exemplifies the sentiment: if trusted sources fail at any point they become absolutely distrusted, and people prefer to choose their sources which further departs from a shared reality. This doesn't happen when they fail it happens when they lie to manipulate the public. For instance: With the lab leak theory, I believe that was suppressed because the authorities didn't want some kind of backlash against China, therefore regardless of any merits the theory had, it was treated as absolutely false and unspeakable. With masks, I believe the authorities very publicly said they didn't work, because they didn't want the public to consume them. I don't think they'd have lost trust if they hadn't done stuff like that, or spoke with a false confidence when they were just guessing. And I say this as someone who followed all the recommendations during COVID, except for using a mask when they were telling people not to.
        readthenotes1 2y ago
        Don't forget that they had to suppress the lab leak theory because of who funded the lab...
  - beej71 2y ago
    Can't remember where I saw the quote: the goal of misinformation is not to get people to believe the misinformation; it's to get them to believe nothing.
    - OutOfHere 2y ago
      It takes the scientific consensus on climate change, turns it around, and exploits climate change for its own devious benefit. I guess school doesn't teach one how to form and test hypotheses.
  - Smoosh 2y ago
    > people seriously doubt EVERYTHING official Worse, they will actively promote falsehoods which do harm to themselves and to others.
user568439 2y ago
How can we keep free speech and ensure that bad actors don't abuse it? Maybe the only way is a highly educated population that can't be easily manipulated. However I'm afraid nowadays there are too many channels that facilitate misinformation spreading. At the same time trusted sources of information are not valued, people are less educated on critical thinking and they have a lack of focus capacity that makes them more vulnerable.
- Eddy_Viscosity2 2y ago
  Being educated or even intelligent isn't always an effective defense against misinformation. It can even make it worse because an educated intelligent mind is way better at rationalizing. The real problem with misinformation is that some people just want it to be true and so it bypasses all critical thinking checks and then reinforced by post-doc rationalizing, cherry-picking, etc. Disregarding information you want to believe requires significant effort and discipline. So the real problem is more around why certain people want to believe certain things. If can address the why, then the misinformation will have no power.
  - bryanlarsen 2y ago
    Interesting paper: https://www.experimental-history.com/p/the-illusion-of-moral-decline https://www.experimental-history.com/p/the-illusion-of-moral... Ask "Are people getting less moral/kind/respectful/honest?". Almost everybody will very confidently reply "yes". The most correct answer is "I don't know", although there is good evidence for "no".
    - Eddy_Viscosity2 2y ago
      I bet those results could be swayed significantly if this question was asked first: "Are YOU getting less moral/kind/respectful/honest?"
    - tivert 2y ago
      I'm kinda skeptical about that paper, or at least the conclusion that this is an illusion (which obnoxious people are going run with to deny and disparage people's perceptions, so they get to feel like the clever boy who's better than everyone). I wonder if what's going on is more of "progressive alienation with age," where young people basically accept things as they are in their youth, then get slowly alienated by rapid cultural change. Also maybe there's an age discrimination factor as people get older they become less valued/respected by strangers.
M95D 2y ago
Fake news + natural disaster = the new form of natural selection.
- dtjb 2y ago
  It's animating outwards. The article highlights how they're interfering with FEMA, sending death threats to meteorologists, and generally making things harder for disaster responders.
jinushaun 2y ago
We really opened Pandora’s box when Facebook and Twitter were invented. Now we have TikTok and generative AI.
- piva00 2y ago
  I've been beating this drum for more than 10 years, we were not prepared (as humanity) for the changes social media brought upon us. I'm completely aware that the same process happened for any other mass media invented, from the printing press, to radio and TV, etc. Still I had a little hope it would be a massively positive change with some hiccups, right now I'm not creative enough to see how we will get through the hiccups... There's a need for something else to bring a shared reality to us but I have absolutely no idea what that would be, I still eagerly wait for it because it's turning out to be extremely exhausting to live in the world post-social media. Post-truth was already a philosophical question, liquid modernity takes on the information revolution with the dissolution of structures, chaotic societies living in an environment where individuals have to parse their own information, etc. Bauman wrote about it in 2000, I read it in 2008 and it's been quite prescient.
  - tivert 2y ago
    Don't worry, gen AI blockchain will solve the problem! Just don't be negative about the technology!
- rich_sasha 2y ago
  Is that right? The past centuries seemed to have "pamphlets" widely circulated with all sorts of bullshit, that were just as bat shit crazy and widely circulated. I suppose with FB the bar is even lower, but still. Not sure I would blame the printing press or FB for human attraction to conspiracies.
  - johnny22 2y ago
    not only is the reach nowadays wider and the means of dissemination cheaper, but lots of regular folks have more time to "research" and spread them and even make some money in the process.
djkivi 2y ago
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." - William J. Casey, CIA Director (1981) https://naacp.org/articles/spread-disinformation-and-how-we-respond https://naacp.org/articles/spread-disinformation-and-how-we-...
- tivert 2y ago
  > "We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." - William J. Casey, CIA Director (1981) That honestly sounds like it is either fake or a joke taken out of context. If that were true, America (and thus the CIA) would collapse and become uncompetitive with its adversaries. The American public is the foundation of the American economy, and people who know only false things aren't very productive. The naive reading also dovetails too nicely with the mood in some corners to view the CIA as a cartoon villain, which just does evil things all the time for no reason.
fucktheatlantic 2y ago
Just because most books are shit doesn’t mean it’s a good idea to burn them.
wslh 2y ago
I'm tired of reductionism and 'isms.' There should be better ways to combat misinformation, and I'm confident we’ll discover them soon. The world population and individual minds adapt slowly to deep change and new tools. While governments may have a role to play, wisdom—sadly lacking in many of them—will be key (pun intended).

39 points by miles 2y ago

Somehow I suspect it is targeted disinfo for a political cause; truth be dammed. When they can't win by truth, they try to win by targeted viral lies. It's as if Cambridge Analytica were reborn for 2024, targeting individuals with custom lies that they will fall for. In the future, we can look forward to realistic fake videos to go with these lies.

theshrike79 2y ago
This is a longer process that started before Donald's first term as president. Now it's bearing fruit, people seriously doubt EVERYTHING official. If anyone with a degree or a generally trusted platform says something, a worrying number of people reflexively don't accept it as fact - instead they make up their own facts or get them from people they, for some reason, trust.
- readthenotes1 2y ago
  The censorship of the lab leak theory might have something to do with it
  - piva00 2y ago
    It's been happening way before COVID, your post exemplifies the sentiment: if trusted sources fail at any point they become absolutely distrusted, and people prefer to choose their sources which further departs from a shared reality. There might have been issues with censoring the lab leak theory, perhaps there were reasons for that such as it not being publicly proven, there was conjecture, etc. but because someone chooses to believe in it, and someone else do not then you got a split reality between them. Rinse and repeat for a multitude of topics and we get to where we are. The USA is the canary in the coal mine for this, or perhaps the seed that's spreading across many other countries, hard to tell. Given the free speech absolutism I personally believe it's a bit of both, it's the canary that also seeded a whole movement of conspiracy theorists grifters. I see that happening in Brazil as well, following on the footsteps of what people like Rush Limbaugh, Alex Jones, etc. created in the USA. And now in Europe I see glimpses of it everywhere.
    - fucktheatlantic 2y ago
      It’s been happening since the Warren Commission and it’s going to keep happening for good reason. The government isn’t trustworthy and by deliberately hiding things from the American public, the American imagination begins to wander. We talk about government censorship around COVID like it’s a drop in the bucket, well it’s a pretty big drop in a pretty deep bucket. Now we have the same corporate media who allowed themselves to be censored by the government telling us that we ought to remove free speech protections when they’re far more complicit than any social media CEO, it’s pathetic.
    - tivert 2y ago
      > It's been happening way before COVID, your post exemplifies the sentiment: if trusted sources fail at any point they become absolutely distrusted, and people prefer to choose their sources which further departs from a shared reality. This doesn't happen when they fail it happens when they lie to manipulate the public. For instance: With the lab leak theory, I believe that was suppressed because the authorities didn't want some kind of backlash against China, therefore regardless of any merits the theory had, it was treated as absolutely false and unspeakable. With masks, I believe the authorities very publicly said they didn't work, because they didn't want the public to consume them. I don't think they'd have lost trust if they hadn't done stuff like that, or spoke with a false confidence when they were just guessing. And I say this as someone who followed all the recommendations during COVID, except for using a mask when they were telling people not to.
      - readthenotes1 2y ago
        Don't forget that they had to suppress the lab leak theory because of who funded the lab...
- beej71 2y ago
  Can't remember where I saw the quote: the goal of misinformation is not to get people to believe the misinformation; it's to get them to believe nothing.
  - OutOfHere 2y ago
    It takes the scientific consensus on climate change, turns it around, and exploits climate change for its own devious benefit. I guess school doesn't teach one how to form and test hypotheses.
- Smoosh 2y ago
  > people seriously doubt EVERYTHING official Worse, they will actively promote falsehoods which do harm to themselves and to others.

user568439 2y ago

How can we keep free speech and ensure that bad actors don't abuse it? Maybe the only way is a highly educated population that can't be easily manipulated. However I'm afraid nowadays there are too many channels that facilitate misinformation spreading. At the same time trusted sources of information are not valued, people are less educated on critical thinking and they have a lack of focus capacity that makes them more vulnerable.

Eddy_Viscosity2 2y ago
Being educated or even intelligent isn't always an effective defense against misinformation. It can even make it worse because an educated intelligent mind is way better at rationalizing. The real problem with misinformation is that some people just want it to be true and so it bypasses all critical thinking checks and then reinforced by post-doc rationalizing, cherry-picking, etc. Disregarding information you want to believe requires significant effort and discipline. So the real problem is more around why certain people want to believe certain things. If can address the why, then the misinformation will have no power.
- bryanlarsen 2y ago
  Interesting paper: https://www.experimental-history.com/p/the-illusion-of-moral-decline https://www.experimental-history.com/p/the-illusion-of-moral... Ask "Are people getting less moral/kind/respectful/honest?". Almost everybody will very confidently reply "yes". The most correct answer is "I don't know", although there is good evidence for "no".
  - Eddy_Viscosity2 2y ago
    I bet those results could be swayed significantly if this question was asked first: "Are YOU getting less moral/kind/respectful/honest?"
  - tivert 2y ago
    I'm kinda skeptical about that paper, or at least the conclusion that this is an illusion (which obnoxious people are going run with to deny and disparage people's perceptions, so they get to feel like the clever boy who's better than everyone). I wonder if what's going on is more of "progressive alienation with age," where young people basically accept things as they are in their youth, then get slowly alienated by rapid cultural change. Also maybe there's an age discrimination factor as people get older they become less valued/respected by strangers.

M95D 2y ago

Fake news + natural disaster = the new form of natural selection.

dtjb 2y ago
It's animating outwards. The article highlights how they're interfering with FEMA, sending death threats to meteorologists, and generally making things harder for disaster responders.

jinushaun 2y ago

We really opened Pandora’s box when Facebook and Twitter were invented. Now we have TikTok and generative AI.

piva00 2y ago
I've been beating this drum for more than 10 years, we were not prepared (as humanity) for the changes social media brought upon us. I'm completely aware that the same process happened for any other mass media invented, from the printing press, to radio and TV, etc. Still I had a little hope it would be a massively positive change with some hiccups, right now I'm not creative enough to see how we will get through the hiccups... There's a need for something else to bring a shared reality to us but I have absolutely no idea what that would be, I still eagerly wait for it because it's turning out to be extremely exhausting to live in the world post-social media. Post-truth was already a philosophical question, liquid modernity takes on the information revolution with the dissolution of structures, chaotic societies living in an environment where individuals have to parse their own information, etc. Bauman wrote about it in 2000, I read it in 2008 and it's been quite prescient.
- tivert 2y ago
  Don't worry, gen AI blockchain will solve the problem! Just don't be negative about the technology!
rich_sasha 2y ago
Is that right? The past centuries seemed to have "pamphlets" widely circulated with all sorts of bullshit, that were just as bat shit crazy and widely circulated. I suppose with FB the bar is even lower, but still. Not sure I would blame the printing press or FB for human attraction to conspiracies.
- johnny22 2y ago
  not only is the reach nowadays wider and the means of dissemination cheaper, but lots of regular folks have more time to "research" and spread them and even make some money in the process.

djkivi 2y ago

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." - William J. Casey, CIA Director (1981) https://naacp.org/articles/spread-disinformation-and-how-we-respond https://naacp.org/articles/spread-disinformation-and-how-we-...

tivert 2y ago
> "We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." - William J. Casey, CIA Director (1981) That honestly sounds like it is either fake or a joke taken out of context. If that were true, America (and thus the CIA) would collapse and become uncompetitive with its adversaries. The American public is the foundation of the American economy, and people who know only false things aren't very productive. The naive reading also dovetails too nicely with the mood in some corners to view the CIA as a cartoon villain, which just does evil things all the time for no reason.

fucktheatlantic 2y ago

Just because most books are shit doesn’t mean it’s a good idea to burn them.

wslh 2y ago

I'm tired of reductionism and 'isms.' There should be better ways to combat misinformation, and I'm confident we’ll discover them soon. The world population and individual minds adapt slowly to deep change and new tools. While governments may have a role to play, wisdom—sadly lacking in many of them—will be key (pun intended).