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And this is precisely why people, not just Americans, can't disagree about politics over time. Politics always turns into someone having the perspective "civil

And this is precisely why people, not just Americans, can't disagree about politics over time. Politics always turns into someone having the perspective "civil disagreement cannot be tolerated because the stakes are too high for my side" which is anethema to reason and concord regardless of whether it's actually true or not. Catastrophizing is always incentivized in the immediate term because it forces any interlocutor(a) to address it at the expense of any other topic and then the catastrophizer can accuse them of apathy and marginialization if they don't show the requisite enthusiasm and deference. It's a no-win situation for anyone attempting to deescalate and many just check-out rather than deal with the litany of accusations, which I guess is another kind of victory for the catastrophizers.

fragmede 2y ago
But what's special about Americans and politics? If I told my coworkers I think the Earth is flat, they'd think I was an idiot and shrug and then continue to work with me. But somehow knowing how I vote is a shortcut to assuming I've drunk the party koolaid and believe in everything the party does and then we can't work together? The extreme sides of both parties are just that, extremes, and don't represent my beliefs on any number of issues, but it's a two party system so you have to go with one or the other, or throw your vote away. Elsewhere, people can work together just fine knowing their coworkers voted for the wrong party.
- from-nibly 2y ago
  Why not just throw your vote away anyway? Whats the point unless you live in a swing state? Also why give the government any ammunition to legitimize their existence in the first place.
  - nataliste 2y ago
    >Whats the point unless you live in a swing state? The game theory strategy in the electoral college is to register and vote as the non-dominant party in any election. If enough people follow this strategy, the locality becomes a swing state and the party platform and candidates will reflect their interests. >Also why give the government any ammunition to legitimize their existence in the first place. Until the government collapses, they still control the monopoly on violence. Unless you're a radical pacifist and willing to be the sacrificial lamb, there is a pretty clear need to participate to the extent that the wolf of government doesn't eat you. The punishment which the wise suffer who refuse to take part in the government is to live under the government of worse people.
    - from-nibly 2y ago
      Worrying about which government is worse is a much worse punnishment for me. Also why not just let it get worse maybe it will help more people wake up.
- nataliste 2y ago
  fragmede, 2017: >I’m not sure what’s turned the tide for me, but I now believe there are limits to free speech. It turns out that some ideas are toxic, as in, people get sucked into them, are too stubborn/whatever to admit they were wrong, and become rabid believers of nonsense. >Witness the adherents to the flat earth society or those that stringently don’t believe we landed on the moon, never [sic] the Googler’s sexist manifesto. Anti-semitic screeds like “the Jews run the banks and this is why you’re poor!” frequently leak into open comment sections of your local news’ website, or YouTube comments. It's not just Americans. The worst offenders tend to be those that believe that they are immune to it.
  - fragmede 2y ago
    Not wanting people to led to believe in a flat earth, and being able to work with people that believe in a flat earth are two different ideas that I don't believe contract each other, but I'm honored you think my writing is worth reading that much of!
    - nataliste 2y ago
      Is flat earth actually catastrophical for you? It seems like other catastrophized topics are much greater points of passion. >When Twitter pretends to be powerless to do anything about death/rape threats to women journalists, the light of civilization is dimmed, ever so slightly. When entire classes of people disengage from mainstream discourse because they are being threatened by bodily harm, maybe it is possible that it is disingenuous to pre-conclude that anything possibly resembling censorship will result in a dystopian police state where African Americans are still denied the right to vote. Would you honestly be willing to work or discuss politely with someone that endorsed the ideas behind James Damore's memo? Your writing (at least as of 2017) suggests not.
      - fragmede 2y ago
        As you've thoughtfully pointed out, that was seven years ago in 2017. The world's changed since then and I've changed with it. Flat Earth is totally not a real issue, but it's a way for me to bring up the fact that unless we're working together as sailors and you're the navigator and the position of the stars above your flat Earth is going to get us stranded, the amount of shared reality we need to have in order to actually work is surprisingly low. At the end of the day we have to coexist, and I realize that I can know that someone read Damore and shares his views and is not in HR, and I can agree to disagree with them and still do things - work, grab a beer, go on trips - with them because the alternative is this loneliness epidemic I keep reading about.
danaris 2y ago
[flagged]
- nataliste 2y ago
  [flagged]
- bongoman42 2y ago
  The interesting thing is, it is hard to tell which side you are talking about here. I've heard exactly the same thing from both the left and the right.
  - marxisttemp 2y ago
    Is it? Is it really hard to tell? This isn’t about what you’ve “heard from both sides”. Which actual rights is the left seeking to take away that would make you so confused about which side is being referred to?
    - bongoman42 2y ago
      The left is not angelic in this regard. The right to self-defense. The assault against merit in hiring and education. Large parts of the left are explicitly pro-violence and anti-women as long as it is perpetrated by Islamists.
    - caeril 2y ago
      Yes, it's hard to tell if you're capable of objectively viewing the absurdity of modern politics. The left is very clearly attempting to curtail the right to free speech, free association, and economic freedom. The right is very clearly attempting to curtail the reproductive rights of women, and freedom of movement across borders. Sure, if you're inured to the "my side is angelic, and the other side is evil", it's easy to tell. But stepping outside of that, it's pretty clear that both sides are gunning for their own specific versions of tyranny.
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
bongoman42 2y ago
This. I've had conversations with PhD folks who are genuinely afraid Trump getting elected will mean their naturalized citizenships will be reversed and they'll be deported. I've had conversations with gay Americans who asked me if they should consider moving to Canada because Trump may remove recognition for gay marriages. Both of these positions are so far out of the likelihood of things that may happen that there is no reason to think about them at all, and yet they do. There is little point in discussion at that point.
- locopati 2y ago
  What reason do you think it's unlikely? He's talked about it. The Supreme Court has talked about it. The Republican party has talked about it.
  - bongoman42 2y ago
    Talked about what? Trump was in power for 4 years, neither of those things came even close to happening. Trump has explicitly said he wants more legal immigration. He has said he wants to stamp Green Cards on everyone graduating from a US college. Vance has explicitly said they're not looking to break up loving families.
    - locopati 2y ago
      why on earth would we believe anything they say?

fragmede 2y ago

But what's special about Americans and politics? If I told my coworkers I think the Earth is flat, they'd think I was an idiot and shrug and then continue to work with me. But somehow knowing how I vote is a shortcut to assuming I've drunk the party koolaid and believe in everything the party does and then we can't work together? The extreme sides of both parties are just that, extremes, and don't represent my beliefs on any number of issues, but it's a two party system so you have to go with one or the other, or throw your vote away. Elsewhere, people can work together just fine knowing their coworkers voted for the wrong party.

from-nibly 2y ago
Why not just throw your vote away anyway? Whats the point unless you live in a swing state? Also why give the government any ammunition to legitimize their existence in the first place.
- nataliste 2y ago
  >Whats the point unless you live in a swing state? The game theory strategy in the electoral college is to register and vote as the non-dominant party in any election. If enough people follow this strategy, the locality becomes a swing state and the party platform and candidates will reflect their interests. >Also why give the government any ammunition to legitimize their existence in the first place. Until the government collapses, they still control the monopoly on violence. Unless you're a radical pacifist and willing to be the sacrificial lamb, there is a pretty clear need to participate to the extent that the wolf of government doesn't eat you. The punishment which the wise suffer who refuse to take part in the government is to live under the government of worse people.
  - from-nibly 2y ago
    Worrying about which government is worse is a much worse punnishment for me. Also why not just let it get worse maybe it will help more people wake up.
nataliste 2y ago
fragmede, 2017: >I’m not sure what’s turned the tide for me, but I now believe there are limits to free speech. It turns out that some ideas are toxic, as in, people get sucked into them, are too stubborn/whatever to admit they were wrong, and become rabid believers of nonsense. >Witness the adherents to the flat earth society or those that stringently don’t believe we landed on the moon, never [sic] the Googler’s sexist manifesto. Anti-semitic screeds like “the Jews run the banks and this is why you’re poor!” frequently leak into open comment sections of your local news’ website, or YouTube comments. It's not just Americans. The worst offenders tend to be those that believe that they are immune to it.
- fragmede 2y ago
  Not wanting people to led to believe in a flat earth, and being able to work with people that believe in a flat earth are two different ideas that I don't believe contract each other, but I'm honored you think my writing is worth reading that much of!
  - nataliste 2y ago
    Is flat earth actually catastrophical for you? It seems like other catastrophized topics are much greater points of passion. >When Twitter pretends to be powerless to do anything about death/rape threats to women journalists, the light of civilization is dimmed, ever so slightly. When entire classes of people disengage from mainstream discourse because they are being threatened by bodily harm, maybe it is possible that it is disingenuous to pre-conclude that anything possibly resembling censorship will result in a dystopian police state where African Americans are still denied the right to vote. Would you honestly be willing to work or discuss politely with someone that endorsed the ideas behind James Damore's memo? Your writing (at least as of 2017) suggests not.
    - fragmede 2y ago
      As you've thoughtfully pointed out, that was seven years ago in 2017. The world's changed since then and I've changed with it. Flat Earth is totally not a real issue, but it's a way for me to bring up the fact that unless we're working together as sailors and you're the navigator and the position of the stars above your flat Earth is going to get us stranded, the amount of shared reality we need to have in order to actually work is surprisingly low. At the end of the day we have to coexist, and I realize that I can know that someone read Damore and shares his views and is not in HR, and I can agree to disagree with them and still do things - work, grab a beer, go on trips - with them because the alternative is this loneliness epidemic I keep reading about.

danaris 2y ago

[flagged]

nataliste 2y ago
[flagged]
bongoman42 2y ago
The interesting thing is, it is hard to tell which side you are talking about here. I've heard exactly the same thing from both the left and the right.
- marxisttemp 2y ago
  Is it? Is it really hard to tell? This isn’t about what you’ve “heard from both sides”. Which actual rights is the left seeking to take away that would make you so confused about which side is being referred to?
  - bongoman42 2y ago
    The left is not angelic in this regard. The right to self-defense. The assault against merit in hiring and education. Large parts of the left are explicitly pro-violence and anti-women as long as it is perpetrated by Islamists.
  - caeril 2y ago
    Yes, it's hard to tell if you're capable of objectively viewing the absurdity of modern politics. The left is very clearly attempting to curtail the right to free speech, free association, and economic freedom. The right is very clearly attempting to curtail the reproductive rights of women, and freedom of movement across borders. Sure, if you're inured to the "my side is angelic, and the other side is evil", it's easy to tell. But stepping outside of that, it's pretty clear that both sides are gunning for their own specific versions of tyranny.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]

bongoman42 2y ago

This. I've had conversations with PhD folks who are genuinely afraid Trump getting elected will mean their naturalized citizenships will be reversed and they'll be deported. I've had conversations with gay Americans who asked me if they should consider moving to Canada because Trump may remove recognition for gay marriages. Both of these positions are so far out of the likelihood of things that may happen that there is no reason to think about them at all, and yet they do. There is little point in discussion at that point.

locopati 2y ago
What reason do you think it's unlikely? He's talked about it. The Supreme Court has talked about it. The Republican party has talked about it.
- bongoman42 2y ago
  Talked about what? Trump was in power for 4 years, neither of those things came even close to happening. Trump has explicitly said he wants more legal immigration. He has said he wants to stamp Green Cards on everyone graduating from a US college. Vance has explicitly said they're not looking to break up loving families.
  - locopati 2y ago
    why on earth would we believe anything they say?