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> Equally binding a view of mental health to religion seems a stretch. Perhaps you have experienced that, but I suspect that connection is not universal. I am

by sqeaky 2y ago

> Equally binding a view of mental health to religion seems a stretch. Perhaps you have experienced that, but I suspect that connection is not universal. I am saying that in the US the stigma against taking mental health seriously is structural. Consider the amount of voters who think demonic possession is real (tens of millions of people) don't vote to fund mental health services. There are millions of our fellow Americans who are real people and think mental illness is punishment from god or think homosexuality or transexuality is a choice and a sin. We shouldn't start on abortion, but every argument against choice has its roots in religion. These people have made a huge impact on healthcare and baked in tons of little decisions into healthcare that impact all of everytime we interact with the healthcare system. Live in a state where depression meds aren't covered, or maybe only some are? Might be them? Clearly I am discussing in the US context, as such buddhism isn't a practical and a corner-case. You can pretend I am not referring to it (even though reincarnation is clearly problematic for people attached to this life based on evidence).

bruce511 2y ago
Narrowing the context from "religion" to US Christianity certainly changes the scope of your comment. Certainly the US Christian approach to mental health US not reflective of non US Christians and certainly not other religions. My experience of US Christians is that most operate in good faith, and are as open to good mental health as any other group. Some proportion, a particularly vocal portion, have weird views about lots of things.
- sqeaky 2y ago
  > My experience of US Christians is that most operate in good faith, and are as open to good mental health as any other group. Some proportion, a particularly vocal portion, have weird views about lots of things. People who think demonic possession is real (again, I am asserting tens of millsions of americans and probablly close to a billion worldwide) are operating in good faith. They actually think that stuff is real and think that locking up or torturing mentally ill people is a good solution. They honestly that actually think torturing people to remove demons is good because they believe in things like souls and think these have a role to play in medicine. > Narrowing the context from "religion" to US Christianity certainly changes the scope of your comment. Yes, it does, but this US centric very capitalistic place to discuss tech stuff. So I am just trying to exclude fantasy because with how much we know it can't help more than it hurts.
  - nickff 2y ago
    Was your original comment talking about ‘religious people’, or ‘American Christians who believe in demonic possession’? You seem to be shifting the subject to a favored target, rather than discussing the comment you originally replied to.
    - ryandrake 2y ago
      That’s the problem with HN comment threads: if you try to make a general point and use broad generalities, people will object and point out counterexamples to nit pick against those generalities. But, instead if you go into specifics, people will nit pick those specifics. You can’t win. It’s an inevitable part of arguing with software engineers who get paid to find the missing negative sign in 1M lines if code: you’re going up against pedants and nit pickers. I understood OP’s general point as: bringing religion, particularly US Christianity, into life and death decisions is fraught due to its practitioners’ general and typical inability to separate fantasy from reality. With the disclaimer that there are always degrees and exceptions. Sure, it’s a spicy take, but I don’t think he needs to get piled on like he has in this thread.
      - fargle 2y ago
        > practitioners’ general and typical inability to separate fantasy from reality. i don't think that is proven, nor true. simply begging the question. to hear you debate, it's as if you believe that generally anyone in the role of chaplain, minister, priest is obviously a schizophrenic nut job (general and typical inability to separate fantasy from reality). one of these days, i hope, you will find out that there are people, of all religions, that live for nothing except to help others. why insult them?
  - roca 2y ago
    I'm a Christian, I lived in the USA for ten years, and AFAIK I never met a single Christian who would deny that mental illness is real or who would say that locking up or torturing mentally ill people is a good thing. And I expect most of them believe that demonic possession can also happen. These are not mutually exclusive beliefs.

by sqeaky 2y ago

bruce511 2y ago

Narrowing the context from "religion" to US Christianity certainly changes the scope of your comment. Certainly the US Christian approach to mental health US not reflective of non US Christians and certainly not other religions. My experience of US Christians is that most operate in good faith, and are as open to good mental health as any other group. Some proportion, a particularly vocal portion, have weird views about lots of things.

sqeaky 2y ago
> My experience of US Christians is that most operate in good faith, and are as open to good mental health as any other group. Some proportion, a particularly vocal portion, have weird views about lots of things. People who think demonic possession is real (again, I am asserting tens of millsions of americans and probablly close to a billion worldwide) are operating in good faith. They actually think that stuff is real and think that locking up or torturing mentally ill people is a good solution. They honestly that actually think torturing people to remove demons is good because they believe in things like souls and think these have a role to play in medicine. > Narrowing the context from "religion" to US Christianity certainly changes the scope of your comment. Yes, it does, but this US centric very capitalistic place to discuss tech stuff. So I am just trying to exclude fantasy because with how much we know it can't help more than it hurts.
- nickff 2y ago
  Was your original comment talking about ‘religious people’, or ‘American Christians who believe in demonic possession’? You seem to be shifting the subject to a favored target, rather than discussing the comment you originally replied to.
  - ryandrake 2y ago
    That’s the problem with HN comment threads: if you try to make a general point and use broad generalities, people will object and point out counterexamples to nit pick against those generalities. But, instead if you go into specifics, people will nit pick those specifics. You can’t win. It’s an inevitable part of arguing with software engineers who get paid to find the missing negative sign in 1M lines if code: you’re going up against pedants and nit pickers. I understood OP’s general point as: bringing religion, particularly US Christianity, into life and death decisions is fraught due to its practitioners’ general and typical inability to separate fantasy from reality. With the disclaimer that there are always degrees and exceptions. Sure, it’s a spicy take, but I don’t think he needs to get piled on like he has in this thread.
    - fargle 2y ago
      > practitioners’ general and typical inability to separate fantasy from reality. i don't think that is proven, nor true. simply begging the question. to hear you debate, it's as if you believe that generally anyone in the role of chaplain, minister, priest is obviously a schizophrenic nut job (general and typical inability to separate fantasy from reality). one of these days, i hope, you will find out that there are people, of all religions, that live for nothing except to help others. why insult them?
- roca 2y ago
  I'm a Christian, I lived in the USA for ten years, and AFAIK I never met a single Christian who would deny that mental illness is real or who would say that locking up or torturing mentally ill people is a good thing. And I expect most of them believe that demonic possession can also happen. These are not mutually exclusive beliefs.