5 ms·

>It has nothing to do with tribal affiliation and everything to do with policy. This is absolutely not how a lot of people operate.

kelseyfrog 2y ago
I'm sensing some sort of neurotypical/neurodiverse divide here. I don't think it's unreasonable to live a morally comprehensive life. For example, I probably couldn't be friends with a white-supremacist even if they were kind, gentle, supportive, and caring. Some folks are able to look past those things and more power to them. I, however, couldn't sleep at night.
- whaaaaat 2y ago
  I'm with you. There are hard lines. But I also have hard lines in who you support. Like, if you vote for a politician who supports, e.g., the eradication of trans people, then even if you say, "I don't believe in that" you've furthered that cause by issuing your vote. I can't abide someone who is willing to compromise on some things.
- s1artibartfast 2y ago
  This is what I find as strange. Why couldn't you sleep at night? In my mind, the moral, healthy, productive, and pro-social thing would be to continue friendship. I dont think shunning people builds bridges or helps anyone. Then again, my generation grew up with stories like black activists who befriended KKK members and slowly converted them with compassion and challenging their preconceived notions.
  - kelseyfrog 2y ago
    I couldn't sleep at night because it would cause cognitive dissonance. I don't think I'm capable of intellectualizing my way out of it. More power to the people who can do it. It's just not within my ability.
    - s1artibartfast 2y ago
      im curious what the dissonance is. what is the it in "out of _it_" is it just cultural instinct and expectation?
      - kelseyfrog 2y ago
        This is one of those comments that stuck with me. First because of my inability to articulate a response, but I've had some time to think. When I think about why I'm uncomfortable with the idea, it stems from feeling like a lack the ability to push back against bigotry with tact. While some people have this skill, I do not. The consequence of this is either not engaging with bigots, or not speaking up when something bigoted is said. I believe that not speaking up against bigoted beliefs implicitly normalizes their acceptability. What I mean by this is that I personally and deeply value tolerance and non-judgementalness with the exception of bigotry[1]. Faced with an inability to tactfully push back, I feel left with not engaging with folks who are overtly bigoted. Saying, "well you should not do that or feel that way," doesn't change the emotional response I have to that situation, it only pushes the intellectual part of me farther way from the emotional side creating a wider gap between feeling and intellect - effectively sowing greater cognitive dissonance. More power to the people who have the skills to tactfully engage with bigots, but that's not me right now. Maybe someday. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance
- zero-sharp 2y ago
  There's definitely some things that warrant distancing. But I try to appreciate the good, even if there is bad. Moral purity is a luxury and self-righteousness can be ugly (sorry).
  - lolinder 2y ago
    Not only is it a luxury, it's sheer arrogance to pretend it exists at all. None of us get through life without complicated trade-offs, and in most cases when you disagree with ~50% of a country's population it's because you have different values of what good thing matters most.
    - kelseyfrog 2y ago
      In fact it's a privilege to not have to worry about moral purity. Being able to look past views without personal consequences is life free of that burden. Some people don't have that option.
      - zero-sharp 2y ago
        Oh, other people have cognitive dissonance too. It's not just you. Being aware of the bad and still engaging doesn't mean that the issue is being ignored or given less weight. Most people are full of contradictions and often carry beliefs that might be seen as controversial (perhaps in hindsight). Maybe it's not appropriate to lump all controversial beliefs into one, but I think a small part of the problem is that we identify ourselves as being morally pure as a way to avoid having hard conversations.
        kelseyfrog 2y ago
        It sounds like you find moral purity to be reprehensible, but at the same time, don't have an issue with having reprehensible people in your life. Why don't you demonstrate how it's done and become friends with me? Contact info in bio.
        s1artibartfast 2y ago

kelseyfrog 2y ago

I'm sensing some sort of neurotypical/neurodiverse divide here. I don't think it's unreasonable to live a morally comprehensive life. For example, I probably couldn't be friends with a white-supremacist even if they were kind, gentle, supportive, and caring. Some folks are able to look past those things and more power to them. I, however, couldn't sleep at night.

whaaaaat 2y ago
I'm with you. There are hard lines. But I also have hard lines in who you support. Like, if you vote for a politician who supports, e.g., the eradication of trans people, then even if you say, "I don't believe in that" you've furthered that cause by issuing your vote. I can't abide someone who is willing to compromise on some things.
s1artibartfast 2y ago
This is what I find as strange. Why couldn't you sleep at night? In my mind, the moral, healthy, productive, and pro-social thing would be to continue friendship. I dont think shunning people builds bridges or helps anyone. Then again, my generation grew up with stories like black activists who befriended KKK members and slowly converted them with compassion and challenging their preconceived notions.
- kelseyfrog 2y ago
  I couldn't sleep at night because it would cause cognitive dissonance. I don't think I'm capable of intellectualizing my way out of it. More power to the people who can do it. It's just not within my ability.
  - s1artibartfast 2y ago
    im curious what the dissonance is. what is the it in "out of _it_" is it just cultural instinct and expectation?
    - kelseyfrog 2y ago
      This is one of those comments that stuck with me. First because of my inability to articulate a response, but I've had some time to think. When I think about why I'm uncomfortable with the idea, it stems from feeling like a lack the ability to push back against bigotry with tact. While some people have this skill, I do not. The consequence of this is either not engaging with bigots, or not speaking up when something bigoted is said. I believe that not speaking up against bigoted beliefs implicitly normalizes their acceptability. What I mean by this is that I personally and deeply value tolerance and non-judgementalness with the exception of bigotry[1]. Faced with an inability to tactfully push back, I feel left with not engaging with folks who are overtly bigoted. Saying, "well you should not do that or feel that way," doesn't change the emotional response I have to that situation, it only pushes the intellectual part of me farther way from the emotional side creating a wider gap between feeling and intellect - effectively sowing greater cognitive dissonance. More power to the people who have the skills to tactfully engage with bigots, but that's not me right now. Maybe someday. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance
zero-sharp 2y ago
There's definitely some things that warrant distancing. But I try to appreciate the good, even if there is bad. Moral purity is a luxury and self-righteousness can be ugly (sorry).
- lolinder 2y ago
  Not only is it a luxury, it's sheer arrogance to pretend it exists at all. None of us get through life without complicated trade-offs, and in most cases when you disagree with ~50% of a country's population it's because you have different values of what good thing matters most.
  - kelseyfrog 2y ago
    In fact it's a privilege to not have to worry about moral purity. Being able to look past views without personal consequences is life free of that burden. Some people don't have that option.
    - zero-sharp 2y ago
      Oh, other people have cognitive dissonance too. It's not just you. Being aware of the bad and still engaging doesn't mean that the issue is being ignored or given less weight. Most people are full of contradictions and often carry beliefs that might be seen as controversial (perhaps in hindsight). Maybe it's not appropriate to lump all controversial beliefs into one, but I think a small part of the problem is that we identify ourselves as being morally pure as a way to avoid having hard conversations.
      - kelseyfrog 2y ago
        It sounds like you find moral purity to be reprehensible, but at the same time, don't have an issue with having reprehensible people in your life. Why don't you demonstrate how it's done and become friends with me? Contact info in bio.
      - s1artibartfast 2y ago