4 ms·

When the question of whether to join the EU, the brits were actually manipulated by their politicians, who presented the EU as an “economic” project. This perce

by xk_id 2y ago

When the question of whether to join the EU, the brits were actually manipulated by their politicians, who presented the EU as an “economic” project. This perception never went away, so when the EU proceeded as it had intended from the beginning, the brits started to resist and realised they had been mislead. The EU stipulates very clearly that the common market and its potential economic benefits are simply a means to an end; that end is to get European countries to see each other as equals.

mytailorisrich 2y ago
No, the end is to destroy national identities and cultures and we are seeing an increasing pushback against that. I feel that if British concerns, including about immigration and free movement had been addressed Brexit and the current turmoil within the EU would have all been averted. This disconnect with the people's concerns is a key issue the EU has to face or be torn apart. Germany suddenly deciding to reintroduce border controls is especially telling and highly ironic.
- xk_id 2y ago
  > No, the end is to destroy national identities and cultures I was referring to the official position of the EU, which is verifiable in their public documents; I don’t care about far-right propaganda. People of course are free to care more about “cultural identity” (whatever it means in the 21st century), than about war. But it doesn’t change the fact that the EU has been successful in creating the longest period of continuous peace in the history of the continent. And this is what it intended from the beginning.
  - jokethrowaway 2y ago
    I think the formation of EU was irrelevant for peace. It's all NATO. And even then, it's arguable whether they did a good job or put too much unneeded pressure to Russia.
    - anon_e-moose 2y ago
      Nobody will declare war on their neighbour when they depend on them for food and other essential resources. The EU addresses resource and cultural motivations. NATO intimidates countries that already want to take resources from their neighbours. NATO has its merit as well, but the EU is unarguably one of the main reasons why EU countries have not even begun to think about creating military conflict within member states since the 1950s.
    - aguaviva 2y ago
      I think the formation of EU was irrelevant for peace. Disagree. Going from a bombed-out, stone-age hellscape to conflict-free and essentially borderless in just 47 years was a very impressive achievement. Unfortunately for the past several years we've been headed in the reverse direction.
  - mytailorisrich 2y ago
    I think throwing abuse like calling my previous comment "far right propaganda" is a case in point of how rotten the debate has become in Europe on any actual, serious issues, and especially on the possibility to express concerns. To deny the very existence of cultural identities is also quite bizarre. Of course countries have their own cultural identies and this is in fact something absolutely key in the current political dynamics in Europe.
    - xk_id 2y ago
      Your theory about EU intentionally destroying cultural identities, isn’t supported by any document published by the EU or any conference transcripts. No EU official has ever described this to be the goal. I’ve only heard about it in far right media. So as a matter of fact, it is far right propaganda. If you want real cultural identities, build a time machine and travel back before airplanes, the internet and neoliberal finance rendered cultural divisions in western countries obsolete.
      - mytailorisrich 2y ago
        I see... Have a very nice day.
      - fakedang 2y ago
        > Your theory about EU intentionally destroying cultural identities, isn’t supported by any document published by the EU or any conference transcripts. You yourself state that the final objective of the EU has always been complete integration across all departments. I don't see how it's possible to retain individual cultural identities in that construct - either you'd have to compromise on representative democracy and equally distribute representation across all cultures, making the vote of a Croat valued more than that of a German, or you'd end up making the vote of the Bulgarian irrelevant against the vote of the French. This is kind of already the case in more closely integrated federations of a similar kind - India and Russia. Individual cultures are slowly being replaced across regions, as people are forced to learn Hindi and Russian to get a job or access some government benefits, in spite of the protests of their respective state governments. > If you want real cultural identities, build a time machine and travel back before airplanes, the internet and neoliberal finance rendered cultural divisions in western countries obsolete. Your arguments are precisely the kind of uneducated drivel that provide fuel to anti-EU sentiment
- Yeul 2y ago
  Germany is reintroducing border controls to stop immigration from OUTSIDE Europe. They aren't doing it to keep out the Dutch or Austrians. Nobody is against freedom of movement of EU citizens.
  - mytailorisrich 2y ago
    Control of non-EU immigration is a concern that is not being addressed. In fact Germany's catastrophic open door policy in 2015 probably precipitated Brexit and is what coming back to bite them now. But there has also been concerns about internal migration since 2004 when Eastern European countries joined. This is not only in the UK and is still the case now.
    - fakedang 2y ago
      Eastern European migration only threatened local jobs, which ended up being a non-issue eventually, as mid-level jobs in all sectors move back to Eastern Europe. The one exception here is healthcare, where Eastern European professionalsbleave as soon as they get the chance to. The current crop of unfettered non-EU migration is not only an employment threat but also a security threat and a threat to the entire concept of the European welfare state.
  - jokethrowaway 2y ago
    There is not enough internal immigration to cause any disruption to national identity. Sure people have been complaining about criminals from poor eastern europe moving to wealthy countries but the numbers were never high enough to actually change the national identity. Internal transfers of hard working people were (and are) always cherished and we celebrated diversity as long as laws were respected. Importing people from Africa and the Middle East in large numbers changed the face of Europe dramatically.
    - ChocolateGod 2y ago
      > There is not enough internal immigration to cause any disruption to national identity. The British expats in Spain and Portugal are famous for learning the local language and culture.
- ChocolateGod 2y ago
  > No, the end is to destroy national identities and cultures and we are seeing an increasing pushback against that. The creation of a pan-European identity does not in anyway degrade from having a "British identity", as you can see in places like the USA with Texas. Whilst net migration was above 0, this was mostly due to arrivals from outside the EU, as we can see from post-Brexit immigration figures, EU free movement has always been a two way street that many Brits took advantage of (those "expats" in Spain).
  - steveBK123 2y ago
    I think the EU project is partially trying to thread the needle of maintaining ethnostates without the nationalism. That is, maintain the culture/language/food without the periodic bouts of war/etc. Neat idea, but is quite a challenge. The US in general is different from even an imaginary future federal EU in that, as some say, "America is an idea". I know people who can trace their "American Heritage" back to pilgrims/boats, and others who naturalized in the last decade. No one aside from true nutcases really gives much thought to the difference. There is no legal distinction aside from naturalized citizens being unable to be President, is about it. Most people I know have lived in multiple states, sometimes across completely different regions. People don't derive any strong identity to the state they were born or spent the most time in. Most people I know would just identify by the current state they live in. There are of course regional differences, but you can move from one region to another and mostly drive the same car, eat the same food, wear the same clothes, buy the same products, shop the same stores, etc. This is a feature or bug depending on your perspective. I think we are sort of like a cultural Borg. The plus side is the US quickly adapts and/or adopts aspects of the culture & cuisine of each wave of immigrants over time. You can get pho in random strip malls nowhere near a big city, and we'll adopt any holiday if it means more drinking, like say Cinco de Mayo.
    - ChocolateGod 2y ago
      > This is a feature or bug depending on your perspective For businesses that don't rely on national pride of patriotism as part of their image, it's a massive feature. The press vilified the EU in the UK for decades, at school I had one lesson in geography on how the EU worked and that was it. Wasn't covered in history or anything. It just all added up and the European identity never took hold in the UK outside center liberals.
- rad_gruchalski 2y ago
  > Germany suddenly deciding to reintroduce border controls is especially telling and highly ironic. Well, I'm driving very often to Belgium via A4 and there are rarely any controls. A44 to Liege is more common but not A4. You could have always been stopped at the border, for whatever reason, even with free movement. It's not like they stop everyone at their border. By the way - from 16th of September for 6 months...

by xk_id 2y ago

mytailorisrich 2y ago

No, the end is to destroy national identities and cultures and we are seeing an increasing pushback against that. I feel that if British concerns, including about immigration and free movement had been addressed Brexit and the current turmoil within the EU would have all been averted. This disconnect with the people's concerns is a key issue the EU has to face or be torn apart. Germany suddenly deciding to reintroduce border controls is especially telling and highly ironic.

xk_id 2y ago
> No, the end is to destroy national identities and cultures I was referring to the official position of the EU, which is verifiable in their public documents; I don’t care about far-right propaganda. People of course are free to care more about “cultural identity” (whatever it means in the 21st century), than about war. But it doesn’t change the fact that the EU has been successful in creating the longest period of continuous peace in the history of the continent. And this is what it intended from the beginning.
- jokethrowaway 2y ago
  I think the formation of EU was irrelevant for peace. It's all NATO. And even then, it's arguable whether they did a good job or put too much unneeded pressure to Russia.
  - anon_e-moose 2y ago
    Nobody will declare war on their neighbour when they depend on them for food and other essential resources. The EU addresses resource and cultural motivations. NATO intimidates countries that already want to take resources from their neighbours. NATO has its merit as well, but the EU is unarguably one of the main reasons why EU countries have not even begun to think about creating military conflict within member states since the 1950s.
  - aguaviva 2y ago
    I think the formation of EU was irrelevant for peace. Disagree. Going from a bombed-out, stone-age hellscape to conflict-free and essentially borderless in just 47 years was a very impressive achievement. Unfortunately for the past several years we've been headed in the reverse direction.
- mytailorisrich 2y ago
  I think throwing abuse like calling my previous comment "far right propaganda" is a case in point of how rotten the debate has become in Europe on any actual, serious issues, and especially on the possibility to express concerns. To deny the very existence of cultural identities is also quite bizarre. Of course countries have their own cultural identies and this is in fact something absolutely key in the current political dynamics in Europe.
  - xk_id 2y ago
    Your theory about EU intentionally destroying cultural identities, isn’t supported by any document published by the EU or any conference transcripts. No EU official has ever described this to be the goal. I’ve only heard about it in far right media. So as a matter of fact, it is far right propaganda. If you want real cultural identities, build a time machine and travel back before airplanes, the internet and neoliberal finance rendered cultural divisions in western countries obsolete.
    - mytailorisrich 2y ago
      I see... Have a very nice day.
    - fakedang 2y ago
      > Your theory about EU intentionally destroying cultural identities, isn’t supported by any document published by the EU or any conference transcripts. You yourself state that the final objective of the EU has always been complete integration across all departments. I don't see how it's possible to retain individual cultural identities in that construct - either you'd have to compromise on representative democracy and equally distribute representation across all cultures, making the vote of a Croat valued more than that of a German, or you'd end up making the vote of the Bulgarian irrelevant against the vote of the French. This is kind of already the case in more closely integrated federations of a similar kind - India and Russia. Individual cultures are slowly being replaced across regions, as people are forced to learn Hindi and Russian to get a job or access some government benefits, in spite of the protests of their respective state governments. > If you want real cultural identities, build a time machine and travel back before airplanes, the internet and neoliberal finance rendered cultural divisions in western countries obsolete. Your arguments are precisely the kind of uneducated drivel that provide fuel to anti-EU sentiment
Yeul 2y ago
Germany is reintroducing border controls to stop immigration from OUTSIDE Europe. They aren't doing it to keep out the Dutch or Austrians. Nobody is against freedom of movement of EU citizens.
- mytailorisrich 2y ago
  Control of non-EU immigration is a concern that is not being addressed. In fact Germany's catastrophic open door policy in 2015 probably precipitated Brexit and is what coming back to bite them now. But there has also been concerns about internal migration since 2004 when Eastern European countries joined. This is not only in the UK and is still the case now.
  - fakedang 2y ago
    Eastern European migration only threatened local jobs, which ended up being a non-issue eventually, as mid-level jobs in all sectors move back to Eastern Europe. The one exception here is healthcare, where Eastern European professionalsbleave as soon as they get the chance to. The current crop of unfettered non-EU migration is not only an employment threat but also a security threat and a threat to the entire concept of the European welfare state.
- jokethrowaway 2y ago
  There is not enough internal immigration to cause any disruption to national identity. Sure people have been complaining about criminals from poor eastern europe moving to wealthy countries but the numbers were never high enough to actually change the national identity. Internal transfers of hard working people were (and are) always cherished and we celebrated diversity as long as laws were respected. Importing people from Africa and the Middle East in large numbers changed the face of Europe dramatically.
  - ChocolateGod 2y ago
    > There is not enough internal immigration to cause any disruption to national identity. The British expats in Spain and Portugal are famous for learning the local language and culture.
ChocolateGod 2y ago
> No, the end is to destroy national identities and cultures and we are seeing an increasing pushback against that. The creation of a pan-European identity does not in anyway degrade from having a "British identity", as you can see in places like the USA with Texas. Whilst net migration was above 0, this was mostly due to arrivals from outside the EU, as we can see from post-Brexit immigration figures, EU free movement has always been a two way street that many Brits took advantage of (those "expats" in Spain).
- steveBK123 2y ago
  I think the EU project is partially trying to thread the needle of maintaining ethnostates without the nationalism. That is, maintain the culture/language/food without the periodic bouts of war/etc. Neat idea, but is quite a challenge. The US in general is different from even an imaginary future federal EU in that, as some say, "America is an idea". I know people who can trace their "American Heritage" back to pilgrims/boats, and others who naturalized in the last decade. No one aside from true nutcases really gives much thought to the difference. There is no legal distinction aside from naturalized citizens being unable to be President, is about it. Most people I know have lived in multiple states, sometimes across completely different regions. People don't derive any strong identity to the state they were born or spent the most time in. Most people I know would just identify by the current state they live in. There are of course regional differences, but you can move from one region to another and mostly drive the same car, eat the same food, wear the same clothes, buy the same products, shop the same stores, etc. This is a feature or bug depending on your perspective. I think we are sort of like a cultural Borg. The plus side is the US quickly adapts and/or adopts aspects of the culture & cuisine of each wave of immigrants over time. You can get pho in random strip malls nowhere near a big city, and we'll adopt any holiday if it means more drinking, like say Cinco de Mayo.
  - ChocolateGod 2y ago
    > This is a feature or bug depending on your perspective For businesses that don't rely on national pride of patriotism as part of their image, it's a massive feature. The press vilified the EU in the UK for decades, at school I had one lesson in geography on how the EU worked and that was it. Wasn't covered in history or anything. It just all added up and the European identity never took hold in the UK outside center liberals.
rad_gruchalski 2y ago
> Germany suddenly deciding to reintroduce border controls is especially telling and highly ironic. Well, I'm driving very often to Belgium via A4 and there are rarely any controls. A44 to Liege is more common but not A4. You could have always been stopped at the border, for whatever reason, even with free movement. It's not like they stop everyone at their border. By the way - from 16th of September for 6 months...