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And that is precisely the issue with the EU. I was always supportive of the spirit of the European Union and its ultimate objectives, but in its current state,

And that is precisely the issue with the EU. I was always supportive of the spirit of the European Union and its ultimate objectives, but in its current state, it's a brutalized self-sabotaging entity that has disillusioned the general public to veer rightwards. And with furthermore technological lagging vis-a-vis China and the US, and the immigration crisis, not to mention the Russian Axis round the corner and the collective inaction of a number of EU states around that, and it's no wonder the EU is falling back into 3rd place. And for some reason, the EU still thinks net uncontrolled refugee migration is good for their economics,their population and their electability, as is letting American private equity buy up large swathes of residential properties. Guess that's what you get when you let freeloaders who haven't worked a real job in their lives hold unelected positions of power.

randomNumber7 2y ago
From my impression of Germany I can tell you they would do the same suicide without the eu.
xk_id 2y ago
> it's a brutalized self-sabotaging entity that has disillusioned the general public to veer rightwards It hasn’t, it only disillusioned those people (like the brits) who didn’t understand the purpose of the EU to begin with. The economic benefits were always considered secondary objectives, subordinated to the main principle of cooperation. This is public knowledge, it was made very clear in the foundational documents of the EU. And therefore the EU has indeed been very successful and its effect is unprecedented: since its inception, we are seeing the longest period ever recorded without a war between European countries.
- mytailorisrich 2y ago
  The Brits perfectly understood one of the aims of the EU and always disagreed with it. One of the aim is political integration and weakening of each member's sovereignty. The UK does not want this but was OK with the common market.
  - xk_id 2y ago
    When the question of whether to join the EU, the brits were actually manipulated by their politicians, who presented the EU as an “economic” project. This perception never went away, so when the EU proceeded as it had intended from the beginning, the brits started to resist and realised they had been mislead. The EU stipulates very clearly that the common market and its potential economic benefits are simply a means to an end; that end is to get European countries to see each other as equals.
    - mytailorisrich 2y ago
      No, the end is to destroy national identities and cultures and we are seeing an increasing pushback against that. I feel that if British concerns, including about immigration and free movement had been addressed Brexit and the current turmoil within the EU would have all been averted. This disconnect with the people's concerns is a key issue the EU has to face or be torn apart. Germany suddenly deciding to reintroduce border controls is especially telling and highly ironic.
      - xk_id 2y ago
        > No, the end is to destroy national identities and cultures I was referring to the official position of the EU, which is verifiable in their public documents; I don’t care about far-right propaganda. People of course are free to care more about “cultural identity” (whatever it means in the 21st century), than about war. But it doesn’t change the fact that the EU has been successful in creating the longest period of continuous peace in the history of the continent. And this is what it intended from the beginning.
        jokethrowaway 2y ago
        I think the formation of EU was irrelevant for peace. It's all NATO. And even then, it's arguable whether they did a good job or put too much unneeded pressure to Russia.
        2y ago
Aerroon 2y ago
In my opinion, the problem is the people. The EU is going in the direction its going with the support of the people. Every once-in-a-while you'll hear about how Europe is becoming less relevant, less competitive, and falling behind. Many reasons are pointed out: too many regulations, too much bureaucracy, too little investor funding, too little risk appetite etc. And then all of that is promptly ignored and we're back to >but we need all of these regulations, otherwise we'll be like America! and >Europeans are actually better off! Imo it's European people that defend all of these things, not just something unelected bureaucrats do.
- steveBK123 2y ago
  I think its a gerontocracy issue. Older European generations have negotiated for the current state of affairs which are nice for existing homeowners who are near and in retirement. This is at the expense of the youth who have eye watering levels of youth unemployment, near 20% in many EU countries. It's 25% in Portugal (vs 6.5% overall) and was as high as 35% in the last decade. These levels make it hard for the next generation to build a career, savings and future for themselves. Note US current unemployment rate is about 4% with youth unemployment being 9%. So US youth unemployment is ~2x overall while Portugal for example has youth unemployment at 4x the overall rate... much more skewed.
addicted 2y ago
The EU has its problems. No country in the EU would have been better off if the EU hadn’t been formed. The only way the EU can be described in the economically apocalyptic way you are is if you don’t consider the alternatives at all. Consider Greece, which is the poster child of the EU economic failures. Outside the EU Greece would have completely collapsed. The only thing that gave it some sort of leverage to get out of a long standing mess was the fact that being part of the EU still gave it some credibility with lenders which gave it time to recover to whatever degree it has. In a nutshell, the EU had a lot of problems but the pre-EU situation would have been significantly worse.
- forinti 2y ago
  Outside the EU, Greece could devalue the Drachma.
- fakedang 2y ago
  > No country in the EU would have been better off if the EU hadn’t been formed. EU, the economic union. Not the political union and the bureaucratic machine that tagged along. > Outside the EU Greece would have completely collapsed. The only thing that gave it some sort of leverage to get out of a long standing mess was the fact that being part of the EU still gave it some credibility with lenders which gave it time to recover to whatever degree it has. You give Greeks too little credit. Outside the EU, they could have devalued their currency, spurred investment from second-world countries (notably China) without answering to a preachy EU blocking them, etc. Greeks imo are some of the most hard-working people in the EU at the moment, perhaps even the most. The EU didn't give them the flexibility to adapt, so that Germany could maintain its supremacy.

randomNumber7 2y ago

From my impression of Germany I can tell you they would do the same suicide without the eu.

xk_id 2y ago

> it's a brutalized self-sabotaging entity that has disillusioned the general public to veer rightwards It hasn’t, it only disillusioned those people (like the brits) who didn’t understand the purpose of the EU to begin with. The economic benefits were always considered secondary objectives, subordinated to the main principle of cooperation. This is public knowledge, it was made very clear in the foundational documents of the EU. And therefore the EU has indeed been very successful and its effect is unprecedented: since its inception, we are seeing the longest period ever recorded without a war between European countries.

mytailorisrich 2y ago
The Brits perfectly understood one of the aims of the EU and always disagreed with it. One of the aim is political integration and weakening of each member's sovereignty. The UK does not want this but was OK with the common market.
- xk_id 2y ago
  When the question of whether to join the EU, the brits were actually manipulated by their politicians, who presented the EU as an “economic” project. This perception never went away, so when the EU proceeded as it had intended from the beginning, the brits started to resist and realised they had been mislead. The EU stipulates very clearly that the common market and its potential economic benefits are simply a means to an end; that end is to get European countries to see each other as equals.
  - mytailorisrich 2y ago
    No, the end is to destroy national identities and cultures and we are seeing an increasing pushback against that. I feel that if British concerns, including about immigration and free movement had been addressed Brexit and the current turmoil within the EU would have all been averted. This disconnect with the people's concerns is a key issue the EU has to face or be torn apart. Germany suddenly deciding to reintroduce border controls is especially telling and highly ironic.
    - xk_id 2y ago
      > No, the end is to destroy national identities and cultures I was referring to the official position of the EU, which is verifiable in their public documents; I don’t care about far-right propaganda. People of course are free to care more about “cultural identity” (whatever it means in the 21st century), than about war. But it doesn’t change the fact that the EU has been successful in creating the longest period of continuous peace in the history of the continent. And this is what it intended from the beginning.
      - jokethrowaway 2y ago
        I think the formation of EU was irrelevant for peace. It's all NATO. And even then, it's arguable whether they did a good job or put too much unneeded pressure to Russia.
        2y ago

Aerroon 2y ago

In my opinion, the problem is the people. The EU is going in the direction its going with the support of the people. Every once-in-a-while you'll hear about how Europe is becoming less relevant, less competitive, and falling behind. Many reasons are pointed out: too many regulations, too much bureaucracy, too little investor funding, too little risk appetite etc. And then all of that is promptly ignored and we're back to >but we need all of these regulations, otherwise we'll be like America! and >Europeans are actually better off! Imo it's European people that defend all of these things, not just something unelected bureaucrats do.

steveBK123 2y ago
I think its a gerontocracy issue. Older European generations have negotiated for the current state of affairs which are nice for existing homeowners who are near and in retirement. This is at the expense of the youth who have eye watering levels of youth unemployment, near 20% in many EU countries. It's 25% in Portugal (vs 6.5% overall) and was as high as 35% in the last decade. These levels make it hard for the next generation to build a career, savings and future for themselves. Note US current unemployment rate is about 4% with youth unemployment being 9%. So US youth unemployment is ~2x overall while Portugal for example has youth unemployment at 4x the overall rate... much more skewed.

addicted 2y ago

The EU has its problems. No country in the EU would have been better off if the EU hadn’t been formed. The only way the EU can be described in the economically apocalyptic way you are is if you don’t consider the alternatives at all. Consider Greece, which is the poster child of the EU economic failures. Outside the EU Greece would have completely collapsed. The only thing that gave it some sort of leverage to get out of a long standing mess was the fact that being part of the EU still gave it some credibility with lenders which gave it time to recover to whatever degree it has. In a nutshell, the EU had a lot of problems but the pre-EU situation would have been significantly worse.

forinti 2y ago
Outside the EU, Greece could devalue the Drachma.
fakedang 2y ago
> No country in the EU would have been better off if the EU hadn’t been formed. EU, the economic union. Not the political union and the bureaucratic machine that tagged along. > Outside the EU Greece would have completely collapsed. The only thing that gave it some sort of leverage to get out of a long standing mess was the fact that being part of the EU still gave it some credibility with lenders which gave it time to recover to whatever degree it has. You give Greeks too little credit. Outside the EU, they could have devalued their currency, spurred investment from second-world countries (notably China) without answering to a preachy EU blocking them, etc. Greeks imo are some of the most hard-working people in the EU at the moment, perhaps even the most. The EU didn't give them the flexibility to adapt, so that Germany could maintain its supremacy.