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Pretty nominal for Europe to be honest. Most Americans don't realize a) how much money they make and b) how little taxes they pay. Apples and oranges with all t

Pretty nominal for Europe to be honest. Most Americans don't realize a) how much money they make and b) how little taxes they pay. Apples and oranges with all the social safety nets and such of course, but still most (healthy) Americans get much more money in their bank accounts after all is said and done than they would in Europe.

baal80spam 2y ago
This is correct. Here's a handy table: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_rates_in_Europe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_rates_in_Europe
- rsynnott 2y ago
  Top rates are kind of useless; some countries have many more brackets than others. The US used to have a 90% tax bracket, but that didn’t make it a particularly high-tax country; effectively no-one paid it. Comparisons, are in practice, inherently difficult, because the curves caused by the tax brackets and credits can be very different. It really depends an awful lot on income.
laweijfmvo 2y ago
I should look more into cost of living in Portugal, maybe, but one of the other commenters mentioned housing prices being… high. In US, making ~$20,000 you’d be considered poor (maybe not “officially”) and probably pay zero federal tax and receive quite a bit of assistance.
- titanomachy 2y ago
  $20k is technically above the US federal poverty line for a single person. I live in a state where anyone under $30k is considered low-income and qualifies for full benefits.
- gnwn2 2y ago
  Well, houses where I live, not Porto or Lisbon, are at 400k now. It is not cheap, getting worst every year
benopal64 2y ago
What happens to the unhealthy Americans? What happens to the Americans who are too poor they cannot pay health insurance and the cost of medicine/surgery. I think only the wealthiest Americans have much more money in their bank accounts than they would in Europe.
- InDubioProRubio 2y ago
  Death and disease are not real, my mind zones them out. I never remember when i was the last time at the dentist, so why include that part in my lifes plan? That is just a blindspot of everyones mental model. They parked a whole scaming theme park in that in the us.
- sickofparadox 2y ago
  This is a misconception. Even in the poorest state here in the US, the median income is far more than most countries in Europe, pre tax[1,2]. And unlike what the internet says, we do have government programs that provide healthcare for those that cannot afford it or are out of work. [1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/205960/median-household-income-in-mississippi/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/205960/median-household-... [2] https://www.euronews.com/business/2024/07/08/european-average-salary-rankings-where-does-your-country-stand https://www.euronews.com/business/2024/07/08/european-averag...
  - hollerith 2y ago
    Agreed. There are many reasons to prefer living in Europe to the US, but "more money in their bank accounts" of non-wealthy people is certainly not one of them even though the American must sometimes use the bank account to pay for things that are provided by the government in Europe.
    - jajko 2y ago
      Unless we talk about Switzerland. But that's like 2% of the continent so what you say is valid. And given too left-leaning and fanatical green-deal-at-all-costs push from Brussels economical situation won't get better, in contrary. They could be pouring money into defense, its not like in 20 years russia will stop wanting to subjugate/murder us all. Or they could try not killing their own automobile industry so quickly. Or... EU started a slow but steady decline given changes in global economies, it will take probably a long time due to various factors but trend is clear.
spookie 2y ago
Portugal is in a weird situation where it has high taxes and at the same time the median salary is too close to the minimum wage. This is difficult to overcome, and thus salaries are stagnated. The government has no reason, in the medium to long term, to have such high taxes. Since, by keeping high taxation the state retrieves less money in absolute terms than they would if they let wages increase and steer away from the minimum wage. I don't think you could say that about most EU countries. Portugal really is in a bad place. (Edit: just clarifying that the situation is different, yes taxation is high as most others but in the case of Portugal its much worse)
- alephnerd 2y ago
  > The government has no reason, in the medium to long term, to have such high taxes It does - Debt. Portugal's debt as percent of GDP skyrocketed during the GFC and Eurozone crisis from 75.8% in 2008 to 129% by 2012. Unlike economies with a similar debt-to-GDP ratio like Italy, Portugal's economy is a relative minnow, and doesn't have a significant domestic capital market which can at least help stem some of the issues, nor can Portugal attract FDI at the same level as much more business friendly Spain, which made income taxes their only lever. That said, the Portuguese debt-to-GDP ratio has gotten much better (99.10% in 2023), but that was because of how much of the Portuguese budget was spent on servicing debt.
  - rsynnott 2y ago
    It’s presumably very _cheap_ debt, though? Ireland’s in a somewhat similar situation (don’t be fooled by the headline debt to GDP figure; Ireland’s GDP is distorted to the point that the government has had to make up its own adjusted metrics), though it’s currently running big budget surpluses, and from time to time someone will ask “why, instead of lowering taxes and investing in infrastructure, are we not using this surplus to pay down debt?” And the answer is that the average cost of the debt is 1.5% (the expensive stuff from the financial crisis has largely refinanced). It makes little sense to aggressively pay down debt at those sorts of rates.
    - s1artibartfast 2y ago
ryandvm 2y ago
That extra money comes in handy when you're paying $15K/year for health insurance because if you don't a few hours in the hospital would cost you triple that.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
HarHarVeryFunny 2y ago
Just looking at salaries and taxes makes for a very distorted view of wealth and affordable lifestyle in the US vs elsewhere. Even if you take into account ALL the major variables such as college costs/loans, housing prices, real estate taxes, cost of healthcare, retirement, etc, it is very difficult to compare. You can better see the reality by looking at actual examples of families with massively different incomes living in the US vs elsewhere. It takes WAY higher salary (5x?) in the US to enjoy the same lifestyle as someone in the UK, for example.
- CalRobert 2y ago
  ..... really? I'd take $200k in the US over 40k GBP any day of the week. And in the US I'd have bug screens in my windows. And air conditioning. And food I can taste.
  - HarHarVeryFunny 2y ago
    Depends where in the US of course. $200K isn't going to go very far if you have to pay $1M for a house, 20K for r/e taxes, etc... One or two kids in college and you are f'd. I don't know exact salary figure, but my sisters family in UK have medium income (1.5 jobs) new BMW, two kids in college, foreign vacations every year, kids got latest Apple phones/watch/laptop growing up ... A bit like 1950's America living the dream on a single income with foreign holidays and iPhones added.
    - CalRobert 2y ago
      When did they buy their house (or flat)?
      - HarHarVeryFunny 2y ago
        House bought a while back before prices shot up, so maybe mortgage paid off ... I don't know. OTOH college costs alone make the US ruinously expensive.. $200K/kid perhaps... That's the point really - you need to look at full financial picture in the US - especially costs. Looking at income tells you nothing.
lucw 2y ago
Can you explain your use of "nominal" in "Pretty nominal for Europe" ? What does it mean ?
- esperent 2y ago
  I guess it's a typo for "normal".

baal80spam 2y ago

This is correct. Here's a handy table: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_rates_in_Europe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_rates_in_Europe

rsynnott 2y ago
Top rates are kind of useless; some countries have many more brackets than others. The US used to have a 90% tax bracket, but that didn’t make it a particularly high-tax country; effectively no-one paid it. Comparisons, are in practice, inherently difficult, because the curves caused by the tax brackets and credits can be very different. It really depends an awful lot on income.

laweijfmvo 2y ago

I should look more into cost of living in Portugal, maybe, but one of the other commenters mentioned housing prices being… high. In US, making ~$20,000 you’d be considered poor (maybe not “officially”) and probably pay zero federal tax and receive quite a bit of assistance.

titanomachy 2y ago
$20k is technically above the US federal poverty line for a single person. I live in a state where anyone under $30k is considered low-income and qualifies for full benefits.
gnwn2 2y ago
Well, houses where I live, not Porto or Lisbon, are at 400k now. It is not cheap, getting worst every year

benopal64 2y ago

What happens to the unhealthy Americans? What happens to the Americans who are too poor they cannot pay health insurance and the cost of medicine/surgery. I think only the wealthiest Americans have much more money in their bank accounts than they would in Europe.

InDubioProRubio 2y ago
Death and disease are not real, my mind zones them out. I never remember when i was the last time at the dentist, so why include that part in my lifes plan? That is just a blindspot of everyones mental model. They parked a whole scaming theme park in that in the us.
sickofparadox 2y ago
This is a misconception. Even in the poorest state here in the US, the median income is far more than most countries in Europe, pre tax[1,2]. And unlike what the internet says, we do have government programs that provide healthcare for those that cannot afford it or are out of work. [1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/205960/median-household-income-in-mississippi/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/205960/median-household-... [2] https://www.euronews.com/business/2024/07/08/european-average-salary-rankings-where-does-your-country-stand https://www.euronews.com/business/2024/07/08/european-averag...
- hollerith 2y ago
  Agreed. There are many reasons to prefer living in Europe to the US, but "more money in their bank accounts" of non-wealthy people is certainly not one of them even though the American must sometimes use the bank account to pay for things that are provided by the government in Europe.
  - jajko 2y ago
    Unless we talk about Switzerland. But that's like 2% of the continent so what you say is valid. And given too left-leaning and fanatical green-deal-at-all-costs push from Brussels economical situation won't get better, in contrary. They could be pouring money into defense, its not like in 20 years russia will stop wanting to subjugate/murder us all. Or they could try not killing their own automobile industry so quickly. Or... EU started a slow but steady decline given changes in global economies, it will take probably a long time due to various factors but trend is clear.

spookie 2y ago

Portugal is in a weird situation where it has high taxes and at the same time the median salary is too close to the minimum wage. This is difficult to overcome, and thus salaries are stagnated. The government has no reason, in the medium to long term, to have such high taxes. Since, by keeping high taxation the state retrieves less money in absolute terms than they would if they let wages increase and steer away from the minimum wage. I don't think you could say that about most EU countries. Portugal really is in a bad place. (Edit: just clarifying that the situation is different, yes taxation is high as most others but in the case of Portugal its much worse)

alephnerd 2y ago
> The government has no reason, in the medium to long term, to have such high taxes It does - Debt. Portugal's debt as percent of GDP skyrocketed during the GFC and Eurozone crisis from 75.8% in 2008 to 129% by 2012. Unlike economies with a similar debt-to-GDP ratio like Italy, Portugal's economy is a relative minnow, and doesn't have a significant domestic capital market which can at least help stem some of the issues, nor can Portugal attract FDI at the same level as much more business friendly Spain, which made income taxes their only lever. That said, the Portuguese debt-to-GDP ratio has gotten much better (99.10% in 2023), but that was because of how much of the Portuguese budget was spent on servicing debt.
- rsynnott 2y ago
  It’s presumably very _cheap_ debt, though? Ireland’s in a somewhat similar situation (don’t be fooled by the headline debt to GDP figure; Ireland’s GDP is distorted to the point that the government has had to make up its own adjusted metrics), though it’s currently running big budget surpluses, and from time to time someone will ask “why, instead of lowering taxes and investing in infrastructure, are we not using this surplus to pay down debt?” And the answer is that the average cost of the debt is 1.5% (the expensive stuff from the financial crisis has largely refinanced). It makes little sense to aggressively pay down debt at those sorts of rates.
  - s1artibartfast 2y ago

ryandvm 2y ago

That extra money comes in handy when you're paying $15K/year for health insurance because if you don't a few hours in the hospital would cost you triple that.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

HarHarVeryFunny 2y ago

Just looking at salaries and taxes makes for a very distorted view of wealth and affordable lifestyle in the US vs elsewhere. Even if you take into account ALL the major variables such as college costs/loans, housing prices, real estate taxes, cost of healthcare, retirement, etc, it is very difficult to compare. You can better see the reality by looking at actual examples of families with massively different incomes living in the US vs elsewhere. It takes WAY higher salary (5x?) in the US to enjoy the same lifestyle as someone in the UK, for example.

CalRobert 2y ago
..... really? I'd take $200k in the US over 40k GBP any day of the week. And in the US I'd have bug screens in my windows. And air conditioning. And food I can taste.
- HarHarVeryFunny 2y ago
  Depends where in the US of course. $200K isn't going to go very far if you have to pay $1M for a house, 20K for r/e taxes, etc... One or two kids in college and you are f'd. I don't know exact salary figure, but my sisters family in UK have medium income (1.5 jobs) new BMW, two kids in college, foreign vacations every year, kids got latest Apple phones/watch/laptop growing up ... A bit like 1950's America living the dream on a single income with foreign holidays and iPhones added.
  - CalRobert 2y ago
    When did they buy their house (or flat)?
    - HarHarVeryFunny 2y ago
      House bought a while back before prices shot up, so maybe mortgage paid off ... I don't know. OTOH college costs alone make the US ruinously expensive.. $200K/kid perhaps... That's the point really - you need to look at full financial picture in the US - especially costs. Looking at income tells you nothing.

lucw 2y ago

Can you explain your use of "nominal" in "Pretty nominal for Europe" ? What does it mean ?

esperent 2y ago
I guess it's a typo for "normal".