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toomuchtodo 2y ago
Pick up a copy of Empty Planet: The Shock of Global Population Decline by Darrell Bricker and John Ibbitson; ISBN13: 9781984823229. Contains interviews with women indicating what I quoted from various cultures. Women want less children than men and society want them to have (TLDR). https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/545397/empty-planet-by-darrell-bricker-and-john-ibbitson/ https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/545397/empty-planet... (“Once a woman receives enough information and autonomy to make an informed and self-directed choice about when to have children, and how many to have, she immediately has fewer of them, and has them later.”) https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)30677-2/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6... | https://doi.org/10.1016/S0140-6736(20)30677-2 https://doi.org/10.1016/S0140-6736(20)30677-2 ("Our findings suggest that continued trends in female educational attainment and access to contraception will hasten declines in fertility and slow population growth. A sustained TFR lower than the replacement level in many countries, including China and India, would have economic, social, environmental, and geopolitical consequences. Policy options to adapt to continued low fertility, while sustaining and enhancing female reproductive health, will be crucial in the years to come.") https://ourworldindata.org/fertility-rate#what-explains-the-declining-fertility-rate https://ourworldindata.org/fertility-rate#what-explains-the-... ("Our World in Data: What explains the declining fertility rate?") https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2024/07/25/the-experiences-of-u-s-adults-who-dont-have-children/ https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2024/07/25/the-exp... ("Pew Research: 57% of adults under 50 who say they’re unlikely to ever have kids say a major reason is they just don’t want to; 31% of those ages 50 and older without kids cite this as a reason they never had them") https://www.axios.com/2024/07/25/adults-no-children-why-pew-data https://www.axios.com/2024/07/25/adults-no-children-why-pew-... ("64% of young women say they just don't want children, compared to 50% of men.") https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-68402139 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-68402139 ("Why South Korean women aren't having babies: The reason women are not having children now is because they have the courage to talk about it.")
- Hutrio 2y ago
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- NoMoreNicksLeft 2y ago
  > Pick up a copy of Empty Planet Haven't read this, thanks for the recommendation. > Once a woman receives enough information and autonomy to make an informed and self-directed choice about when to have children, and how many to have, she immediately has fewer of them, and has them later. I do not agree with this premise. > adults under 50 who say they’re unlikely to ever have kids say a major reason is they just don’t want to This is like asking the anorexic why they don't eat and believing them when they tell you that they're "just not hungry".
  - toomuchtodo 2y ago
    Reality stands on its own without belief in it. Even in countries with robust (ie expensive) pro natalist fiscal policy, it does not materially improve the fertility rate. I ask, out of curiosity, what you do believe the culprit is and what your data to back the assertion is (if the cause is not empowered women making fertility choices). https://reason.com/2023/05/02/storks-dont-take-orders-from-the-state/ https://reason.com/2023/05/02/storks-dont-take-orders-from-t... ("South Korea spent more than $200 billion subsidizing child care and parental leave over the past 16 years, President Yoon Suk Yeol said last fall. Yet the fertility rate fell from 1.1 in 2006 to 0.81 in 2021. The amount of money required to trigger even these small effects is enormous. In "The Economic Consequences of Family Policies," published in the Journal of Economic Perspectives in 2017, researchers found "one extra percentage point of GDP spending" on early childhood education and child care programs was "associated with 0.2 extra children per woman." In the U.S., where the 2022 GDP was $25.46 trillion, that would mean spending more than $250 billion.") https://www.nber.org/papers/w23051 https://www.nber.org/papers/w23051 ("The Economic Consequences of Family Policies: Lessons from a Century of Legislation in High-Income Countries")
    - RGamma 2y ago
      Kinda wonder if/how we could/should turn having (and caring for!) children into its own serious career. As in: Have 8 well-tended children and you're top 10% of disposable income (someone needs to work out the math on this).

[flagged]

Pick up a copy of Empty Planet: The Shock of Global Population Decline by Darrell Bricker and John Ibbitson; ISBN13: 9781984823229. Contains interviews with women indicating what I quoted from various cultures. Women want less children than men and society want them to have (TLDR). https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/545397/empty-planet-by-darrell-bricker-and-john-ibbitson/ https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/545397/empty-planet... (“Once a woman receives enough information and autonomy to make an informed and self-directed choice about when to have children, and how many to have, she immediately has fewer of them, and has them later.”) https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)30677-2/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6... | https://doi.org/10.1016/S0140-6736(20)30677-2 https://doi.org/10.1016/S0140-6736(20)30677-2 ("Our findings suggest that continued trends in female educational attainment and access to contraception will hasten declines in fertility and slow population growth. A sustained TFR lower than the replacement level in many countries, including China and India, would have economic, social, environmental, and geopolitical consequences. Policy options to adapt to continued low fertility, while sustaining and enhancing female reproductive health, will be crucial in the years to come.") https://ourworldindata.org/fertility-rate#what-explains-the-declining-fertility-rate https://ourworldindata.org/fertility-rate#what-explains-the-... ("Our World in Data: What explains the declining fertility rate?") https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2024/07/25/the-experiences-of-u-s-adults-who-dont-have-children/ https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2024/07/25/the-exp... ("Pew Research: 57% of adults under 50 who say they’re unlikely to ever have kids say a major reason is they just don’t want to; 31% of those ages 50 and older without kids cite this as a reason they never had them") https://www.axios.com/2024/07/25/adults-no-children-why-pew-data https://www.axios.com/2024/07/25/adults-no-children-why-pew-... ("64% of young women say they just don't want children, compared to 50% of men.") https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-68402139 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-68402139 ("Why South Korean women aren't having babies: The reason women are not having children now is because they have the courage to talk about it.")

Hutrio 2y ago
[dead]
NoMoreNicksLeft 2y ago
> Pick up a copy of Empty Planet Haven't read this, thanks for the recommendation. > Once a woman receives enough information and autonomy to make an informed and self-directed choice about when to have children, and how many to have, she immediately has fewer of them, and has them later. I do not agree with this premise. > adults under 50 who say they’re unlikely to ever have kids say a major reason is they just don’t want to This is like asking the anorexic why they don't eat and believing them when they tell you that they're "just not hungry".
- toomuchtodo 2y ago
  Reality stands on its own without belief in it. Even in countries with robust (ie expensive) pro natalist fiscal policy, it does not materially improve the fertility rate. I ask, out of curiosity, what you do believe the culprit is and what your data to back the assertion is (if the cause is not empowered women making fertility choices). https://reason.com/2023/05/02/storks-dont-take-orders-from-the-state/ https://reason.com/2023/05/02/storks-dont-take-orders-from-t... ("South Korea spent more than $200 billion subsidizing child care and parental leave over the past 16 years, President Yoon Suk Yeol said last fall. Yet the fertility rate fell from 1.1 in 2006 to 0.81 in 2021. The amount of money required to trigger even these small effects is enormous. In "The Economic Consequences of Family Policies," published in the Journal of Economic Perspectives in 2017, researchers found "one extra percentage point of GDP spending" on early childhood education and child care programs was "associated with 0.2 extra children per woman." In the U.S., where the 2022 GDP was $25.46 trillion, that would mean spending more than $250 billion.") https://www.nber.org/papers/w23051 https://www.nber.org/papers/w23051 ("The Economic Consequences of Family Policies: Lessons from a Century of Legislation in High-Income Countries")
  - RGamma 2y ago
    Kinda wonder if/how we could/should turn having (and caring for!) children into its own serious career. As in: Have 8 well-tended children and you're top 10% of disposable income (someone needs to work out the math on this).