4 ms·

Factorio and Rimworld have amazing wikis as well. And they're both maintained by the developers AFAIK...

bombcar 2y ago
The Dwarf Fortress wiki https://dwarffortresswiki.org https://dwarffortresswiki.org is perhaps the most impressive I've seen, as it maintains namespaces to maintain (and update!) information about particular versions, because many players end up staying on a version for various reasons.
- munificent 2y ago
  I wish the Minecraft wiki did that. I don't tend to play the latest version because I feel like it got overly complex and I get analysis paralysis if I play the latest version. But being on an old version makes navigating the wiki hard. I'm never sure if some content applies to me. Sometimes they say which version a feature was introduced in, but if a mechanic changes, they often just document the latest behavior.
  - bombcar 2y ago
    Tell me about it; playing GregTech:New Horizons and trying to figure out vanilla mechanics related to 1.7.10 is annoying. All the GTNH specific stuff is on their wiki, but vanilla mechanics are just assumed.
- sph 2y ago
  The good ol' Mediawiki look of the DF wiki reminds me of the underrated, and oft maligned Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup wiki: http://crawl.chaosforge.org/Crawl_Wiki http://crawl.chaosforge.org/Crawl_Wiki
  - csmcg 2y ago
    I haven't played DCSS regularly since probably v0.24 or v0.25, so things may have changed - but if I recall correctly, it was not kept up to date very well, character guides are flat-out wrong, etc...
    - kibwen 2y ago
      One of the Crawl design philosophies is that it should be possible to play without needing to consult a wiki. E.g. inspecting a monster shows you its spells and their damage ranges, there's a searchable in-game encyclopedia of all items/spells/monsters/etc., there's an extensive in-game manual with things like species skill aptitudes, examining an item tells you exactly what skill level you need to use it optimally, and so on. There's plenty of useful stuff on the wiki, but it's not a priority to update because it's not entirely necessary.
      - bombcar 2y ago
        Factorio has a similar goal, which actually works really well. It lets the wiki focus on strategies and things that aren't well described in-game, but for quick "how does this work" you can just stay in game.
      - csmcg 2y ago
        I mean yeah, I agree, I'm a longtime player. I appreciate DCSS's in-game discoverability. I find wikis useful for more in-depth explanation of game mechanics though. How combat rolls are calculated, etc. Ideally a wiki would provide that kind of deeper level of information, guide materials, etc. Interestingly, DCSS's best source of info is the IRC bots/learndb.
- wpietri 2y ago
  Could you say a bit more about that? Normally I think "have to support people stuck on old versions" is something that happens when you're selling enterprise software to insurance companies. This is the first I've heard of it in games.
  - Tomte 2y ago
    Players comfortable with the ASCII graphics version (the one that existed for years) often just paid for Steam release with pretty graphics just to support the brothers. And then kept playing the "hardcore" version they are used to.
  - bombcar 2y ago
    As mentioned, some versions of the game introduce breaking concepts that earlier players may not want to deal with (either because it breaks save compatibility, or they don't like the mechanic, etc). Minecraft has this somewhat also, with some people sticking on various versions because of mods, or play style, or combat, etc. For example, one huge change was going from a 2D map to a 3D one, another was how world generation was done. See "Eras" here for the big ones: https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/Release_information https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/Release_information
  - gazook89 2y ago
    DF had a massive update probably a decade or more ago that changed the game from 2D to 3D (still represented as 2D z-levels though). With such a change, obviously some people would want to stick with the old version. There have been numerous large updates since then (the game has been in development for 22 years) and with each you get some people that just don’t want to update, either because it might ruin their current games or they prefer to avoid new features etc. Another example is the various Dungeon and Dragons wikis that allow you to toggle between versions, since it has existed for 50 years now.
  - dudeinhawaii 2y ago
    On the Steam platform for instance there is an option (perhaps developer supported) to stay on a certain version of a game. For instance, in the game Mount and Blade: Bannerlord, players notoriously stay 2, 3, or even 10 versions behind in order to maintain compatibility with specific mods or sets of mods (10s or 100s of mods). Eventually, enough of the modders move to the next or latest version and the players gradually move with them. Games with "always on" or auto-updaters avoid this.

The Dwarf Fortress wiki https://dwarffortresswiki.org https://dwarffortresswiki.org is perhaps the most impressive I've seen, as it maintains namespaces to maintain (and update!) information about particular versions, because many players end up staying on a version for various reasons.

munificent 2y ago
I wish the Minecraft wiki did that. I don't tend to play the latest version because I feel like it got overly complex and I get analysis paralysis if I play the latest version. But being on an old version makes navigating the wiki hard. I'm never sure if some content applies to me. Sometimes they say which version a feature was introduced in, but if a mechanic changes, they often just document the latest behavior.
- bombcar 2y ago
  Tell me about it; playing GregTech:New Horizons and trying to figure out vanilla mechanics related to 1.7.10 is annoying. All the GTNH specific stuff is on their wiki, but vanilla mechanics are just assumed.
sph 2y ago
The good ol' Mediawiki look of the DF wiki reminds me of the underrated, and oft maligned Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup wiki: http://crawl.chaosforge.org/Crawl_Wiki http://crawl.chaosforge.org/Crawl_Wiki
- csmcg 2y ago
  I haven't played DCSS regularly since probably v0.24 or v0.25, so things may have changed - but if I recall correctly, it was not kept up to date very well, character guides are flat-out wrong, etc...
  - kibwen 2y ago
    One of the Crawl design philosophies is that it should be possible to play without needing to consult a wiki. E.g. inspecting a monster shows you its spells and their damage ranges, there's a searchable in-game encyclopedia of all items/spells/monsters/etc., there's an extensive in-game manual with things like species skill aptitudes, examining an item tells you exactly what skill level you need to use it optimally, and so on. There's plenty of useful stuff on the wiki, but it's not a priority to update because it's not entirely necessary.
    - bombcar 2y ago
      Factorio has a similar goal, which actually works really well. It lets the wiki focus on strategies and things that aren't well described in-game, but for quick "how does this work" you can just stay in game.
    - csmcg 2y ago
      I mean yeah, I agree, I'm a longtime player. I appreciate DCSS's in-game discoverability. I find wikis useful for more in-depth explanation of game mechanics though. How combat rolls are calculated, etc. Ideally a wiki would provide that kind of deeper level of information, guide materials, etc. Interestingly, DCSS's best source of info is the IRC bots/learndb.
wpietri 2y ago
Could you say a bit more about that? Normally I think "have to support people stuck on old versions" is something that happens when you're selling enterprise software to insurance companies. This is the first I've heard of it in games.
- Tomte 2y ago
  Players comfortable with the ASCII graphics version (the one that existed for years) often just paid for Steam release with pretty graphics just to support the brothers. And then kept playing the "hardcore" version they are used to.
- bombcar 2y ago
  As mentioned, some versions of the game introduce breaking concepts that earlier players may not want to deal with (either because it breaks save compatibility, or they don't like the mechanic, etc). Minecraft has this somewhat also, with some people sticking on various versions because of mods, or play style, or combat, etc. For example, one huge change was going from a 2D map to a 3D one, another was how world generation was done. See "Eras" here for the big ones: https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/Release_information https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/Release_information
- gazook89 2y ago
  DF had a massive update probably a decade or more ago that changed the game from 2D to 3D (still represented as 2D z-levels though). With such a change, obviously some people would want to stick with the old version. There have been numerous large updates since then (the game has been in development for 22 years) and with each you get some people that just don’t want to update, either because it might ruin their current games or they prefer to avoid new features etc. Another example is the various Dungeon and Dragons wikis that allow you to toggle between versions, since it has existed for 50 years now.
- dudeinhawaii 2y ago
  On the Steam platform for instance there is an option (perhaps developer supported) to stay on a certain version of a game. For instance, in the game Mount and Blade: Bannerlord, players notoriously stay 2, 3, or even 10 versions behind in order to maintain compatibility with specific mods or sets of mods (10s or 100s of mods). Eventually, enough of the modders move to the next or latest version and the players gradually move with them. Games with "always on" or auto-updaters avoid this.