3 ms·

As a customer and user of WPEngine, what role do you see wordpress in that relationship? Generally when I buy things I try to take some consideration of the sub

by belorn 2y ago

As a customer and user of WPEngine, what role do you see wordpress in that relationship? Generally when I buy things I try to take some consideration of the sub-contractors and suppliers to the supplier of service, but I am aware that I do not have a direct relationship with them. I doubt the courts will demand that WordPress foundation must provide servers and bandwidth indefinite and free of charge to anyone, especially when there is no contract between WPEngine and WordPress foundation. When Youtube removed API functionality and under a night destroyed companies that relied on those free API's, courts did not demand that Youtube went back. It is inherently risky for companies to depend on someone else servers and network service being provided for free without any contract. The more easy path forward would be for WPEngine to switch dependency. Debian has an reliable repository. Core wordpress is already packaged there, it get updates, and a handful of the most popular themes are also packaged. If that is not enough then WPEngine could spend employee hours to package more themes. No need for proxies or workarounds. I would estimate that 90% of the customers on WPEngine could continue to exist using just that.

mthoms 2y ago
"The point of the foundation is to ensure free access, in perpetuity, to the software projects we support" https://wordpressfoundation.org https://wordpressfoundation.org That's not only on their website, it's also stated in their 501c3 filings with the IRS. Another thing to note is that "wordpress.org" is hardcoded into several places in the source code, and Matt has outright refused to make it more directly configurable. There are even more issues involved, so while your point is sound, the reality of the situation is pretty complicated.
- belorn 2y ago
  The free software movement and FSF in particular has always been very clear that free in this context does not mean that projects can't sell CD's with software on it. It is also this interpretation that allow for paid support, which would otherwise also not be "free". It is possible that courts would make a different interpretation, or that free access to software will be interpreted as not free software, but instead about free access to a distribution channel, Which mean wordpress could go proprietary under that statement (free access to download would says nothing about freedom to run it). The distinction gets generally refereed as "free as in speech, not free as in beer". Regarding Debian, I don't know if the Debian package has anything hardcoded to wordpress.org. The generally recommended update path is to use debian package manager rather than internal updating mechanics. Debian maintainers often patch thing or change defaults as part of the packaging in order to make software behave nicely with the debian eco-system.
bigiain 2y ago
> The more easy path forward would be for WPEngine to switch dependency. Debian has a reliable repository. Yeah, but. Do we trust Matt now to not required the Debian packagers to, as he says, "choose sides" before giving Debian access to the wordpress.org infrastructure to download updated WordPress core and plugins/themes? I can _easily_ see him escalating like that. > As a customer and user of WPEngine, what role do you see wordpress in that relationship? The same role as I always used to see WordPress (the project, including WordPress core and the entire 1st and 3rd party plug/theme community) has with other companies that have a WordPress installation capability like cPanel and Plesk, and with every other hosting company that makes is easier to deploy WordPress than starting from a bare Linux VM - like GoDaddy or Dreamhost or practically any SMB oriented web hosting vendor. And I think Matt is being entirely disingenuous, probably to the point I'd be happy to accuse him of outright lying, when he says WPEngine don't contribute back to the WordPress community. WPE have listed out the support they provide to the community which is in the form of conference sponsorship and development of open of the important plugins (ACF). While they obviously _could_ do more, I think the blackmail tactic Matt's using to extort them into paying 8% of revenue (at many million dollars a year) not to "the WordPress Community", but into a company (Automatic) that's directly owned by Matt, and that is a direct competitor in the WordPress hosting space. And the recent news the the WordPress Foundation has applied to trademark "Wordpress Hosting" and "Managed WordPress" is totally off the charts punching "the WordPress Community" in the face. In my experience, by far the most common WordPress user acquisition channel is people using $5/month GoDaddy or similar hosting with a one click WP install, and sooner or later outgrowing that level of over subscribed web hosting and moving on to more dedicated WordPress hosting either through a digital agency or consultant, or going directly to WPEngine (often on recommendation from people just like me). If Matt gets _any_ traction in enforcing 8% revenue (or more, as he's threatened) from WPEngine for using the word "WordPress" on it's website, how quickly do you think the lawyers at low margin/low cost of entry vendors like GoDaddy will say "Just take down every single mention of WordPress _anywhere_ and stop offering it to customers." As I said, absent some adult supervision over Matt's tantrums, I believe we are witnessing the start of the end of WordPress.
- dylan604 2y ago
  "if Matt" "do we trust Matt" "blah blah yeah but Matt" So why isn't this thing forked yet? It seems like WP Engine has the resources and now the motivation to do it. Advertise as a 100% compatible drop in replacement. MariaDB did it.

by belorn 2y ago

mthoms 2y ago

"The point of the foundation is to ensure free access, in perpetuity, to the software projects we support" https://wordpressfoundation.org https://wordpressfoundation.org That's not only on their website, it's also stated in their 501c3 filings with the IRS. Another thing to note is that "wordpress.org" is hardcoded into several places in the source code, and Matt has outright refused to make it more directly configurable. There are even more issues involved, so while your point is sound, the reality of the situation is pretty complicated.

belorn 2y ago
The free software movement and FSF in particular has always been very clear that free in this context does not mean that projects can't sell CD's with software on it. It is also this interpretation that allow for paid support, which would otherwise also not be "free". It is possible that courts would make a different interpretation, or that free access to software will be interpreted as not free software, but instead about free access to a distribution channel, Which mean wordpress could go proprietary under that statement (free access to download would says nothing about freedom to run it). The distinction gets generally refereed as "free as in speech, not free as in beer". Regarding Debian, I don't know if the Debian package has anything hardcoded to wordpress.org. The generally recommended update path is to use debian package manager rather than internal updating mechanics. Debian maintainers often patch thing or change defaults as part of the packaging in order to make software behave nicely with the debian eco-system.

bigiain 2y ago

> The more easy path forward would be for WPEngine to switch dependency. Debian has a reliable repository. Yeah, but. Do we trust Matt now to not required the Debian packagers to, as he says, "choose sides" before giving Debian access to the wordpress.org infrastructure to download updated WordPress core and plugins/themes? I can _easily_ see him escalating like that. > As a customer and user of WPEngine, what role do you see wordpress in that relationship? The same role as I always used to see WordPress (the project, including WordPress core and the entire 1st and 3rd party plug/theme community) has with other companies that have a WordPress installation capability like cPanel and Plesk, and with every other hosting company that makes is easier to deploy WordPress than starting from a bare Linux VM - like GoDaddy or Dreamhost or practically any SMB oriented web hosting vendor. And I think Matt is being entirely disingenuous, probably to the point I'd be happy to accuse him of outright lying, when he says WPEngine don't contribute back to the WordPress community. WPE have listed out the support they provide to the community which is in the form of conference sponsorship and development of open of the important plugins (ACF). While they obviously _could_ do more, I think the blackmail tactic Matt's using to extort them into paying 8% of revenue (at many million dollars a year) not to "the WordPress Community", but into a company (Automatic) that's directly owned by Matt, and that is a direct competitor in the WordPress hosting space. And the recent news the the WordPress Foundation has applied to trademark "Wordpress Hosting" and "Managed WordPress" is totally off the charts punching "the WordPress Community" in the face. In my experience, by far the most common WordPress user acquisition channel is people using $5/month GoDaddy or similar hosting with a one click WP install, and sooner or later outgrowing that level of over subscribed web hosting and moving on to more dedicated WordPress hosting either through a digital agency or consultant, or going directly to WPEngine (often on recommendation from people just like me). If Matt gets _any_ traction in enforcing 8% revenue (or more, as he's threatened) from WPEngine for using the word "WordPress" on it's website, how quickly do you think the lawyers at low margin/low cost of entry vendors like GoDaddy will say "Just take down every single mention of WordPress _anywhere_ and stop offering it to customers." As I said, absent some adult supervision over Matt's tantrums, I believe we are witnessing the start of the end of WordPress.

dylan604 2y ago
"if Matt" "do we trust Matt" "blah blah yeah but Matt" So why isn't this thing forked yet? It seems like WP Engine has the resources and now the motivation to do it. Advertise as a 100% compatible drop in replacement. MariaDB did it.