4 ms·

> proficient with C# which is even faster to write and debug. I don't get it - why are we ignoring the fact that C# necessarily implies distributing CLR? Nativ

> proficient with C# which is even faster to write and debug. I don't get it - why are we ignoring the fact that C# necessarily implies distributing CLR? NativeAOT doesn't work for everything.

Const-me 2y ago
On AMD64 Windows, .NET 8.0 runtime takes 31.7 MB to download, and 70.7 MB on disk. On ARM64 Linux, the numbers are 28.4 MB and 75.0 MB, respectively. For that amount of data, both internet bandwidth and disk space are rather cheap these days?
pjmlp 2y ago
As usual the typical argument that if it doesn't cover 100% of everything it isn't good enough. There are plenty of use cases where NativeAOT works perfectly fine, and is getting better with each .NET release.
- almostgotcaught 2y ago
  > As usual the typical argument that if it doesn't cover 100% of everything it isn't good enough. This text > When I’m happy with the level of performance delivered by idiomatic C++ and standard collections, I tend to avoid C++ all together because I also proficient with C# which is even faster to write and debug. very strongly implies that they're completely interchangeable. They're not. It's as simple as that. Sometimes it's hard to keep track of whether I work in software or politics.
  - neonsunset 2y ago
    > very strongly implies that they're completely interchangeable Not completely but they are interchangeable. C# at its inception was as much inspired by C++ as it was by Java. Since then, it only further evolved to accommodate far more low-level scenarios and improve their performance. It provides the kind of capabilities you'd usually expect from C++, so this statement holds true. Calling C exports is one `static extern ...` method away, you can define explicit layout for structs (that satisfy 'unmanaged' constraint), you have fixed arrays in structs, stack buffers, pointers and ability to do raw or abstracted away manual memory management, etc. You can mmap device-shared memory and push data into GPU. You can accept pointers from C or C++ and wrap them into Span<T>s and pass those to most standard library methods.
    - almostgotcaught 2y ago
      > Not completely but they are interchangeable ... <whole lotta words telling me things i'm already extremely well aware of> I'll just ask you this extremely simple question: does C# compile/run/whatever-magic-you-think-it-does on targets that aren't in {x32, x86, ARM64}? Does it target RISC-V? Does it target PTX? Does it target AMDGPU? Are you getting the picture? Pre-empting the most low-brow dismissal: these are only niche targets if you've never heard of a company called NVIDIA.
      - Const-me 2y ago
        > on targets that aren't in {x32, x86, ARM64}? I have personally shipped embedded Linux software running on 32 bit ARMv7 SoC written mostly in C#. The product is long in production and we’re happy with the outcome. > Does it target RISC-V? Not sure if it’s ready for production, but see that article: https://www.phoronix.com/news/Microsoft-dotNET-RISC-V https://www.phoronix.com/news/Microsoft-dotNET-RISC-V > Does it target PTX? According to nVidia, the answer is yes: https://developer.nvidia.com/blog/hybridizer-csharp/ https://developer.nvidia.com/blog/hybridizer-csharp/ > Does it target AMDGPU? Not sure, probably not.
        almostgotcaught 2y ago
        > Not sure if it’s ready for production, but see that article: https://www.phoronix.com/news/Microsoft-dotNET-RISC-V https://www.phoronix.com/news/Microsoft-dotNET-RISC-V > It's coming from a Samsung engineer, Dong-Heon Jung, who is involved with the .NET platform team and works on it as part of his role at Samsung. answer: no > According to nVidia, the answer is yes: https://developer.nvidia.com/blog/hybridizer-csharp/ https://developer.nvidia.com/blog/hybridizer-csharp/ > Dec 13, 2017 answer: no > Not sure, probably not. correct, the answer is no. again: this isn't politics, this is software, where the details actually matter.
        Const-me 2y ago
        > Dec 13, 2017 OK, here’s a newer project which does about the same thing i.e. compiles C# to PTX https://ilgpu.net/ https://ilgpu.net/ BTW, it supports OpenCL backend in addition to CUDA.

> proficient with C# which is even faster to write and debug. I don't get it - why are we ignoring the fact that C# necessarily implies distributing CLR? NativeAOT doesn't work for everything.

Const-me 2y ago

On AMD64 Windows, .NET 8.0 runtime takes 31.7 MB to download, and 70.7 MB on disk. On ARM64 Linux, the numbers are 28.4 MB and 75.0 MB, respectively. For that amount of data, both internet bandwidth and disk space are rather cheap these days?

pjmlp 2y ago

As usual the typical argument that if it doesn't cover 100% of everything it isn't good enough. There are plenty of use cases where NativeAOT works perfectly fine, and is getting better with each .NET release.

almostgotcaught 2y ago
> As usual the typical argument that if it doesn't cover 100% of everything it isn't good enough. This text > When I’m happy with the level of performance delivered by idiomatic C++ and standard collections, I tend to avoid C++ all together because I also proficient with C# which is even faster to write and debug. very strongly implies that they're completely interchangeable. They're not. It's as simple as that. Sometimes it's hard to keep track of whether I work in software or politics.
- neonsunset 2y ago
  > very strongly implies that they're completely interchangeable Not completely but they are interchangeable. C# at its inception was as much inspired by C++ as it was by Java. Since then, it only further evolved to accommodate far more low-level scenarios and improve their performance. It provides the kind of capabilities you'd usually expect from C++, so this statement holds true. Calling C exports is one `static extern ...` method away, you can define explicit layout for structs (that satisfy 'unmanaged' constraint), you have fixed arrays in structs, stack buffers, pointers and ability to do raw or abstracted away manual memory management, etc. You can mmap device-shared memory and push data into GPU. You can accept pointers from C or C++ and wrap them into Span<T>s and pass those to most standard library methods.
  - almostgotcaught 2y ago
    > Not completely but they are interchangeable ... <whole lotta words telling me things i'm already extremely well aware of> I'll just ask you this extremely simple question: does C# compile/run/whatever-magic-you-think-it-does on targets that aren't in {x32, x86, ARM64}? Does it target RISC-V? Does it target PTX? Does it target AMDGPU? Are you getting the picture? Pre-empting the most low-brow dismissal: these are only niche targets if you've never heard of a company called NVIDIA.
    - Const-me 2y ago
      > on targets that aren't in {x32, x86, ARM64}? I have personally shipped embedded Linux software running on 32 bit ARMv7 SoC written mostly in C#. The product is long in production and we’re happy with the outcome. > Does it target RISC-V? Not sure if it’s ready for production, but see that article: https://www.phoronix.com/news/Microsoft-dotNET-RISC-V https://www.phoronix.com/news/Microsoft-dotNET-RISC-V > Does it target PTX? According to nVidia, the answer is yes: https://developer.nvidia.com/blog/hybridizer-csharp/ https://developer.nvidia.com/blog/hybridizer-csharp/ > Does it target AMDGPU? Not sure, probably not.
      - almostgotcaught 2y ago
        > Not sure if it’s ready for production, but see that article: https://www.phoronix.com/news/Microsoft-dotNET-RISC-V https://www.phoronix.com/news/Microsoft-dotNET-RISC-V > It's coming from a Samsung engineer, Dong-Heon Jung, who is involved with the .NET platform team and works on it as part of his role at Samsung. answer: no > According to nVidia, the answer is yes: https://developer.nvidia.com/blog/hybridizer-csharp/ https://developer.nvidia.com/blog/hybridizer-csharp/ > Dec 13, 2017 answer: no > Not sure, probably not. correct, the answer is no. again: this isn't politics, this is software, where the details actually matter.
        Const-me 2y ago
        > Dec 13, 2017 OK, here’s a newer project which does about the same thing i.e. compiles C# to PTX https://ilgpu.net/ https://ilgpu.net/ BTW, it supports OpenCL backend in addition to CUDA.