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It would be nice to understand what "can't" means in this context. Are they not technically able to achieve it (which may be overcome by bringing in other techn

It would be nice to understand what "can't" means in this context. Are they not technically able to achieve it (which may be overcome by bringing in other technical experts), is it a DNS issue (ha-ha), or is there a licensing issue with some component they integrated with?

mlhpdx 2y ago
Likewise, is it strictly "we can't" or "you can't, either" -- the former would be a legal issue whereas the latter might be an tech/IP issue (ownership of PKI and, yes, DNS).
jcgrillo 2y ago
Yeah... > Fisker informed American Lease that the Oceans "cannot, as a technical matter, be 'ported' from the Fisker server to which the vehicles are currently linked to a distinct server owned and/or controlled by" American Lease. "as a technical matter" is doing a lot of work in that sentence... I have questions.
abound 2y ago
The first thing that came to my mind was "cert pinning and someone lost the private keys", but that seems pretty unlikely in the grand scheme of things that can go wrong. I'd actually be willing to pick one of these up for a 70%+ discount if it came with all the internal schematics and source code, server migrations be damned.
- zie 2y ago
  As buggy as their software seems to be, I'd be a little surprised if they worked that hard and actually did it reliably.
sam1r 2y ago
Right, "technically" not theoretically, it is absolutely still possible. This almost always alludes politics.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
randerson 2y ago
I've can't imagine any technical situation short of "we lost the source to the in-car software, which is pinned to a certificate only installed on our server, which only one guy had the password to, and he kept it only in his memory, and he died".
- gjsman-1000 2y ago
  Ironically, the best solution if that was the case, would be to hire some hackers and hack your own car. Find a kernel exploit, find a power glitching attack against the CPU, find a USB exploit, find a Bluetooth exploit, find a Recovery mode exploit, whatever it may be; and build a physical harness which consistently runs the exploit and modifies the signing certificate. Nasty but effective and probably cheap. Or, even, kills the main GUI and replaces it with your own. If I was American Lease, I would look into that, besides suing. Edit: Looking into it, it’s Android Automotive without Google Services. Who wants to bet that it’s an old version of Android on a recycled MediaTek tablet processor which is no longer getting security patches? Knowing MediaTek, completely reprogramming Secure Boot might not be off the table.
  - jcgrillo 2y ago
    There's also the option of the ethical version of the $5 wrench hack--hiring the (recently unemployed) people who actually built this stuff.
    - gjsman-1000 2y ago
      Assuming they still have the signing keys, or knowledge of how the build servers worked… or even legal access to the source code, which would require a negotiation / lawsuit against Fisker that could take years. That’s assuming Fisker hasn’t already liquidated that material.
      - jcgrillo 2y ago
        Those are good points, but even hiring someone with knowledge as a consultant could be valuable in framing that case--knowing what you actually need is important.
davesmylie 2y ago
I read that as "technically we can't do this as we don't have the money"
Palomides 2y ago
I strongly suspect everyone who knew their infrastructure was laid off (or quit), so there's no chance of a technical handoff
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- sundbry 2y ago
  Sure there is, if you let an outside expert read the source code for a week.
  - Our_Benefactors 2y ago
    Oh sweet summer child.
  - saulrh 2y ago
    It's probably way more complicated than that. Ever seen the cold start disaster recovery procedure for a big system with identity and encryption-at-rest and message busses involved? You might be lucky if the bring-up doesnt have any individual stages that take a week to quiesce all by themselves. I know that this system probably isn't all that big, but if I assume their server-side software is as low-quality as their embedded software, I can easily imagine it being that complex and interdependent and poorly documented.
    - chipdart 2y ago
      > It's probably way more complicated than that. I once saw a small team of FANG engineers, that included two well seasoned senior engineers, revive a project left unmaintained for two years after the owning team was disbanded. That small team took two weeks alone to get the project to build and run locally, with tons of bits missing. But hey, if a random anonymous internet expert says that all it takes to revive a project is a week of browsing through the source code then that must be true.
      - 2y ago
emmelaich 2y ago
Yes, 'technically' sounds like bullshit. It could be something as simple as the server ip address in each car's firmware. That's annoying but not insurmountable.
- saulrh 2y ago
  I mean, if there's no mechanism for deploying firmware updates, they took off the jtag headers or burned some fuses or blew a programmable-once ROM, there may be no way to deploy updates short of dismantling the car and swapping out a couple major boards. That might well count as "can't".

mlhpdx 2y ago

Likewise, is it strictly "we can't" or "you can't, either" -- the former would be a legal issue whereas the latter might be an tech/IP issue (ownership of PKI and, yes, DNS).

jcgrillo 2y ago

Yeah... > Fisker informed American Lease that the Oceans "cannot, as a technical matter, be 'ported' from the Fisker server to which the vehicles are currently linked to a distinct server owned and/or controlled by" American Lease. "as a technical matter" is doing a lot of work in that sentence... I have questions.

abound 2y ago

The first thing that came to my mind was "cert pinning and someone lost the private keys", but that seems pretty unlikely in the grand scheme of things that can go wrong. I'd actually be willing to pick one of these up for a 70%+ discount if it came with all the internal schematics and source code, server migrations be damned.

zie 2y ago
As buggy as their software seems to be, I'd be a little surprised if they worked that hard and actually did it reliably.

sam1r 2y ago

Right, "technically" not theoretically, it is absolutely still possible. This almost always alludes politics.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

randerson 2y ago

I've can't imagine any technical situation short of "we lost the source to the in-car software, which is pinned to a certificate only installed on our server, which only one guy had the password to, and he kept it only in his memory, and he died".

gjsman-1000 2y ago
Ironically, the best solution if that was the case, would be to hire some hackers and hack your own car. Find a kernel exploit, find a power glitching attack against the CPU, find a USB exploit, find a Bluetooth exploit, find a Recovery mode exploit, whatever it may be; and build a physical harness which consistently runs the exploit and modifies the signing certificate. Nasty but effective and probably cheap. Or, even, kills the main GUI and replaces it with your own. If I was American Lease, I would look into that, besides suing. Edit: Looking into it, it’s Android Automotive without Google Services. Who wants to bet that it’s an old version of Android on a recycled MediaTek tablet processor which is no longer getting security patches? Knowing MediaTek, completely reprogramming Secure Boot might not be off the table.
- jcgrillo 2y ago
  There's also the option of the ethical version of the $5 wrench hack--hiring the (recently unemployed) people who actually built this stuff.
  - gjsman-1000 2y ago
    Assuming they still have the signing keys, or knowledge of how the build servers worked… or even legal access to the source code, which would require a negotiation / lawsuit against Fisker that could take years. That’s assuming Fisker hasn’t already liquidated that material.
    - jcgrillo 2y ago
      Those are good points, but even hiring someone with knowledge as a consultant could be valuable in framing that case--knowing what you actually need is important.

davesmylie 2y ago

I read that as "technically we can't do this as we don't have the money"

Palomides 2y ago

I strongly suspect everyone who knew their infrastructure was laid off (or quit), so there's no chance of a technical handoff

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
sundbry 2y ago
Sure there is, if you let an outside expert read the source code for a week.
- Our_Benefactors 2y ago
  Oh sweet summer child.
- saulrh 2y ago
  It's probably way more complicated than that. Ever seen the cold start disaster recovery procedure for a big system with identity and encryption-at-rest and message busses involved? You might be lucky if the bring-up doesnt have any individual stages that take a week to quiesce all by themselves. I know that this system probably isn't all that big, but if I assume their server-side software is as low-quality as their embedded software, I can easily imagine it being that complex and interdependent and poorly documented.
  - chipdart 2y ago
    > It's probably way more complicated than that. I once saw a small team of FANG engineers, that included two well seasoned senior engineers, revive a project left unmaintained for two years after the owning team was disbanded. That small team took two weeks alone to get the project to build and run locally, with tons of bits missing. But hey, if a random anonymous internet expert says that all it takes to revive a project is a week of browsing through the source code then that must be true.
    - 2y ago

emmelaich 2y ago

Yes, 'technically' sounds like bullshit. It could be something as simple as the server ip address in each car's firmware. That's annoying but not insurmountable.

saulrh 2y ago
I mean, if there's no mechanism for deploying firmware updates, they took off the jtag headers or burned some fuses or blew a programmable-once ROM, there may be no way to deploy updates short of dismantling the car and swapping out a couple major boards. That might well count as "can't".