5 ms·

How hard is it to run ./configure && make && sudo make install (at least on a *nix-compatible OS)? Most of the time the defaults work fine. I have no idea how

How hard is it to run ./configure && make && sudo make install (at least on a *nix-compatible OS)? Most of the time the defaults work fine. I have no idea how this would translate into the world of Windows though.

kstenerud 14y ago
For 98% of the world's population? Very hard, approaching impossibly hard.
- kintamanimatt 14y ago
  In that case I like this model, not because I want to feel like a special snowflake, but because it encourages and rewards leaning.
  - kstenerud 14y ago
    Wonderful! Remember those words when you encounter a program that "encourages" you to master quantum physics, tort law for interstate commerce, and accounting for mergers and acquisitions before you're allowed to use it.
    - kintamanimatt 14y ago
      Getting some piece of FOSS to work on a VPS many years ago was how I got started learning GNU/Linux. I couldn't be more grateful for the pitfalls and minor struggle I had before I could get whatever it was working. The two also don't compare. Quantum physics is different and more complex than ./configure && make && sudo make install. Also, the user doesn't have to learn any of this and can just make a "donation" if they prefer.
    - possibilistic 14y ago
      It's easy to Google "how do I compile this?" or "how do I install X program?" and get results. It is not, however, easy to Google "How do I use the Hartree-Fock approximation on toluene?" Remember: the internet was built by computer users. We have some of the most detailed documentation and most accessible learning materials of any discipline. The same cannot be said of computational chemistry, quantum physics, systems metabolomics, ...
      - zanny 14y ago
        The top Google result for "How do I use the Hartree-Fock approximation on toluene" is this comment thread. Smashing!
        kintamanimatt 14y ago
        Ironically, the top result for "How do I use the Hartree-Fock approximation on toluene" is now your comment saying this thread is now the top result! [1] [1] http://i.imgur.com/8EiBm.png http://i.imgur.com/8EiBm.png
        jurre 14y ago
        Even more ironically, now the top result for "How do I use the Hartree-Fock approximation on toluene" is your comment!
        possibilistic 14y ago
        Point made. ;p
      - edholland 14y ago
        http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jcc.540070209/abstract http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jcc.540070209/abs... your google-fu is weak my son.
    - tikhonj 14y ago
      No. Learning about configure, make and make install is more like learning basic arithmetic than quantum mechanics. And I certainly wouldn't begrudge a program having basic arithmetic as a prerequisite! Of course I don't begrudge a program having basic category theory as a prerequisite either (turns out the very basics are actually very simple!) so maybe I'm not truly representative.
      - recursive 14y ago
        The last time I used make was when I was in school, about 10 years ago. I don't think I've ever used configure. The last time I used arithmetic was... every day. To me, make is closer to quantum mechanics than arithmetic. I also dabbled in Haskell. Honestly, I struggled. There's a distinct possibility that I'm not that smart, but if I'm not, then there are a lot of people that aren't.
        tikhonj 14y ago
        Okay, maybe arithmetic is too basic. But it certainly isn't beyond basic trig! I bet you don't use trig daily, but it's hardly unreasonable for you to need to know what sin and cos do. The first time I ran into the whole configure and make system, I just looked at the INSTALL file and followed the instructions. It was actually easier than some GUI stuff I had to do because I could basically copy the commands verbatim instead of having to look through a bunch of complicated screenshots. It also took me a little bit of effort to get used to Haskell. But once I did, it was great. It really is a magical language; it combines all the benefits you normally hear about with a unique sort of expressiveness I haven't found in any other languages (even close ones, like OCaml, don't quite cut it, although they are awesome in their own ways). The real breakthrough for me was implementing a simple Scheme interpreter in Haskell. There is a tutorial [1] that explains exactly how to do this; I found it very helpful. However, I am a little leery of suggesting it now because the code there doesn't always follow best practices. It's great for getting the right mindset, but you should probably not carry all the exact techniques over to your real code. [1]: http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Write_Yourself_a_Scheme_in_48_Hours http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Write_Yourself_a_Scheme_in_48_H...
- jason_slack 14y ago
  Agreed. Even with a comprehensive Read Me there will be issues that people wont be able to overcome due to lack of experience...mismatched library versions, compiler versions, OS, etc.
  - kintamanimatt 14y ago
    Why is it good to shelter people from learning experiences? Forums, documentation, Q&A sites, IRC, Google, etc are all excellent resources for n00bs. When I was a complete and utter beginner I relied on all the above methods for support when I encountered seemingly insurmountable problems, and as a consequence I learned a lot and quickly. This was one of the best things that ever happened to me.
    - deleted 14y ago
      [deleted]
    - novalis 14y ago
      Because of train wrecks like this (there are plenty of other examples around, let us no pretend there aren't): /home/rob/projects/gnu/gcc/configure -target=arm-linux-androideabi --host=i386-linux-gnu --build=i386-linux-gnu --with-gnu-as --with-gnu-ld --enable-languages=c,c++ --without-ppl --without-cloog --disable-libssp --enable-threads --disable-nls --disable-libmudflap --disable-libgomp --disable-shared --disable-tls --disable-libitm --with-float=soft --with-fpu=vfp --enable-target-optspace --enable-initfini-array --disable-nls --prefix=/usr/local/android-toolchain --with-sysroot=/usr/local/android-toolchain/sysroot --enable-gold --with-pkgversion=Rob Savoye --disable-libquadmath --disable-plugin --enable-gold=default target_configargs=lt_cv_shlibpath_overrides_runpath=yes --enable-cxx-flags='-fexceptions -frtt You say shelter, someone else says complete waste of time. I am actually for people building their own but if you don't recognize that some problems at some instances of dev are simply over complicated winding hacks that will not ever be used again... well. That just turns to the 'Holier than Thou' moments that look over pedantic to people that, while not lacking coding skills, will just be put off when contacting with this reality. And the n00bs, l33t talk, not so much.
    - gergles 14y ago
- malkia 14y ago
  We have top-notch programmers which have never heard of configure, and to them anything opensource that does not compile straight in Visual Studio is not worth it. You can't even get them to learn a little bit about make, but then again some of them glamorize XML as the best thing ever.
  - mixmastamyk 14y ago
    "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." —Inigo Montoya
  - kintamanimatt 14y ago
    I'm genuinely curious and I'm not being antagonistic, but why do you call them top-notch if they refuse to learn and shy away from a problem that should be (to them) relatively easy?
    - splicer 14y ago
      Maybe he's talking about notches on the pay scale ;)
    - joesb 14y ago
      Because they are the best at what they do? Someone are just the best programmer in Windows/Visual Studio environment. And being "top-notch" should not be reserved to only those who use command line.
      - drivebyacct2 14y ago
        I have an immensely hard time believing someone is the "best programmer in VS" without knowing how to use more advanced tools.
      - npsimons 14y ago
        I think he was referring to the "top notch" developers being unwilling to learn, which to me would disqualify them from the category of "top notch", no matter what how good they are at using their preferred toolset. I'm curious, if they are so resistant to learning new things, how well do they deal with changes in MSVS? Like for instance going from 2008 to 2010, the solution file format changed (and the importer is far from perfect), and things were moved around in the GUI.
simonbrown 14y ago
> I have no idea how this would translate into the world of Windows though. Spend an hour downloading Visual C++ Express (assuming it works in express, otherwise buy the professional version). Try to fix any build errors (not an easy task if you're not a programmer). Install NSIS and any installer dependencies. Make sure the binary is in the right place. etc.
adrianpike 14y ago
Don't forget to install any dependencies before you configure, otherwise you might have a shiny new ImageMagick that doesn't support PNGs!
eli 14y ago
I think it could serve as a reminder to people who aren't really sysadmins that, hey, I don't know enough to fix this if it breaks so maybe I should pay for support for this product that I rely on.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
MaysonL 14y ago
To run those, if everything works, simple. If you are even slightly embedded in dependency hell, then nearly impossible, spending a reasonable amount of time.
lunarscape 14y ago
Not everything is that easy. An example would be NeoOffice for Mac. You have to "donate" to get the binaries or compile it yourself, except it requires 10.4 and XCode 2.5 [1]. [1] http://neowiki.neooffice.org/index.php/NeoOffice_Build_Instructions http://neowiki.neooffice.org/index.php/NeoOffice_Build_Instr...

kstenerud 14y ago

For 98% of the world's population? Very hard, approaching impossibly hard.

kintamanimatt 14y ago
In that case I like this model, not because I want to feel like a special snowflake, but because it encourages and rewards leaning.
- kstenerud 14y ago
  Wonderful! Remember those words when you encounter a program that "encourages" you to master quantum physics, tort law for interstate commerce, and accounting for mergers and acquisitions before you're allowed to use it.
  - kintamanimatt 14y ago
    Getting some piece of FOSS to work on a VPS many years ago was how I got started learning GNU/Linux. I couldn't be more grateful for the pitfalls and minor struggle I had before I could get whatever it was working. The two also don't compare. Quantum physics is different and more complex than ./configure && make && sudo make install. Also, the user doesn't have to learn any of this and can just make a "donation" if they prefer.
  - possibilistic 14y ago
    It's easy to Google "how do I compile this?" or "how do I install X program?" and get results. It is not, however, easy to Google "How do I use the Hartree-Fock approximation on toluene?" Remember: the internet was built by computer users. We have some of the most detailed documentation and most accessible learning materials of any discipline. The same cannot be said of computational chemistry, quantum physics, systems metabolomics, ...
    - zanny 14y ago
      The top Google result for "How do I use the Hartree-Fock approximation on toluene" is this comment thread. Smashing!
      - kintamanimatt 14y ago
        Ironically, the top result for "How do I use the Hartree-Fock approximation on toluene" is now your comment saying this thread is now the top result! [1] [1] http://i.imgur.com/8EiBm.png http://i.imgur.com/8EiBm.png
        jurre 14y ago
        Even more ironically, now the top result for "How do I use the Hartree-Fock approximation on toluene" is your comment!
        possibilistic 14y ago
        Point made. ;p
    - edholland 14y ago
      http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jcc.540070209/abstract http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jcc.540070209/abs... your google-fu is weak my son.
  - tikhonj 14y ago
    No. Learning about configure, make and make install is more like learning basic arithmetic than quantum mechanics. And I certainly wouldn't begrudge a program having basic arithmetic as a prerequisite! Of course I don't begrudge a program having basic category theory as a prerequisite either (turns out the very basics are actually very simple!) so maybe I'm not truly representative.
    - recursive 14y ago
      The last time I used make was when I was in school, about 10 years ago. I don't think I've ever used configure. The last time I used arithmetic was... every day. To me, make is closer to quantum mechanics than arithmetic. I also dabbled in Haskell. Honestly, I struggled. There's a distinct possibility that I'm not that smart, but if I'm not, then there are a lot of people that aren't.
      - tikhonj 14y ago
        Okay, maybe arithmetic is too basic. But it certainly isn't beyond basic trig! I bet you don't use trig daily, but it's hardly unreasonable for you to need to know what sin and cos do. The first time I ran into the whole configure and make system, I just looked at the INSTALL file and followed the instructions. It was actually easier than some GUI stuff I had to do because I could basically copy the commands verbatim instead of having to look through a bunch of complicated screenshots. It also took me a little bit of effort to get used to Haskell. But once I did, it was great. It really is a magical language; it combines all the benefits you normally hear about with a unique sort of expressiveness I haven't found in any other languages (even close ones, like OCaml, don't quite cut it, although they are awesome in their own ways). The real breakthrough for me was implementing a simple Scheme interpreter in Haskell. There is a tutorial [1] that explains exactly how to do this; I found it very helpful. However, I am a little leery of suggesting it now because the code there doesn't always follow best practices. It's great for getting the right mindset, but you should probably not carry all the exact techniques over to your real code. [1]: http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Write_Yourself_a_Scheme_in_48_Hours http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Write_Yourself_a_Scheme_in_48_H...
jason_slack 14y ago
Agreed. Even with a comprehensive Read Me there will be issues that people wont be able to overcome due to lack of experience...mismatched library versions, compiler versions, OS, etc.
- kintamanimatt 14y ago
  Why is it good to shelter people from learning experiences? Forums, documentation, Q&A sites, IRC, Google, etc are all excellent resources for n00bs. When I was a complete and utter beginner I relied on all the above methods for support when I encountered seemingly insurmountable problems, and as a consequence I learned a lot and quickly. This was one of the best things that ever happened to me.
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
  - novalis 14y ago
    Because of train wrecks like this (there are plenty of other examples around, let us no pretend there aren't): /home/rob/projects/gnu/gcc/configure -target=arm-linux-androideabi --host=i386-linux-gnu --build=i386-linux-gnu --with-gnu-as --with-gnu-ld --enable-languages=c,c++ --without-ppl --without-cloog --disable-libssp --enable-threads --disable-nls --disable-libmudflap --disable-libgomp --disable-shared --disable-tls --disable-libitm --with-float=soft --with-fpu=vfp --enable-target-optspace --enable-initfini-array --disable-nls --prefix=/usr/local/android-toolchain --with-sysroot=/usr/local/android-toolchain/sysroot --enable-gold --with-pkgversion=Rob Savoye --disable-libquadmath --disable-plugin --enable-gold=default target_configargs=lt_cv_shlibpath_overrides_runpath=yes --enable-cxx-flags='-fexceptions -frtt You say shelter, someone else says complete waste of time. I am actually for people building their own but if you don't recognize that some problems at some instances of dev are simply over complicated winding hacks that will not ever be used again... well. That just turns to the 'Holier than Thou' moments that look over pedantic to people that, while not lacking coding skills, will just be put off when contacting with this reality. And the n00bs, l33t talk, not so much.
  - gergles 14y ago
malkia 14y ago
We have top-notch programmers which have never heard of configure, and to them anything opensource that does not compile straight in Visual Studio is not worth it. You can't even get them to learn a little bit about make, but then again some of them glamorize XML as the best thing ever.
- mixmastamyk 14y ago
  "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." —Inigo Montoya
- kintamanimatt 14y ago
  I'm genuinely curious and I'm not being antagonistic, but why do you call them top-notch if they refuse to learn and shy away from a problem that should be (to them) relatively easy?
  - splicer 14y ago
    Maybe he's talking about notches on the pay scale ;)
  - joesb 14y ago
    Because they are the best at what they do? Someone are just the best programmer in Windows/Visual Studio environment. And being "top-notch" should not be reserved to only those who use command line.
    - drivebyacct2 14y ago
      I have an immensely hard time believing someone is the "best programmer in VS" without knowing how to use more advanced tools.
    - npsimons 14y ago
      I think he was referring to the "top notch" developers being unwilling to learn, which to me would disqualify them from the category of "top notch", no matter what how good they are at using their preferred toolset. I'm curious, if they are so resistant to learning new things, how well do they deal with changes in MSVS? Like for instance going from 2008 to 2010, the solution file format changed (and the importer is far from perfect), and things were moved around in the GUI.

simonbrown 14y ago

> I have no idea how this would translate into the world of Windows though. Spend an hour downloading Visual C++ Express (assuming it works in express, otherwise buy the professional version). Try to fix any build errors (not an easy task if you're not a programmer). Install NSIS and any installer dependencies. Make sure the binary is in the right place. etc.

adrianpike 14y ago

Don't forget to install any dependencies before you configure, otherwise you might have a shiny new ImageMagick that doesn't support PNGs!

eli 14y ago

I think it could serve as a reminder to people who aren't really sysadmins that, hey, I don't know enough to fix this if it breaks so maybe I should pay for support for this product that I rely on.

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

MaysonL 14y ago

To run those, if everything works, simple. If you are even slightly embedded in dependency hell, then nearly impossible, spending a reasonable amount of time.

lunarscape 14y ago

Not everything is that easy. An example would be NeoOffice for Mac. You have to "donate" to get the binaries or compile it yourself, except it requires 10.4 and XCode 2.5 [1]. [1] http://neowiki.neooffice.org/index.php/NeoOffice_Build_Instructions http://neowiki.neooffice.org/index.php/NeoOffice_Build_Instr...